HomeMy WebLinkAbout1993-09-27 - City Commission Workshop Meeting MinutesCity Council Workshop Meeting
9/27/93/KJ
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CITY OF TAMARAC
CITY COUNCIL WORKSHOP MEETING
MONDAY, SEPTEMBER 27, 1993
CALL TO ORDER: Mayor Bender called this meeting to order on Monday,
September 27, 1993 at 9:00 a.m. in the Conference Room #1 of City Hall.
PRESENT:
Mayor H. Larry Bender
Vice Mayor Irving Katz
Councilman Norman Abramowitz
Councilman Henry Schumann
Councilman Joseph Schreiber
Dina McDermott, Assistant City Manager
Michael Couzzo, Director of Public Services/Assistant
City Manager
Mitch Kraft, City Attorney
Karen Jackson, Secretary
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The purpose of this meeting is Council discussion regarding Canal
Cleanup Project.
Mayor Bender: Director of Public Services, Mike Couzzo, had...
a... issued a memorandum dated September 24th on the subject. Have
you had an opportunity to read it? Okay. Mike, you want to pick
up the ... uh...
Mike Couzzo: Certainly, Mayor.
Mayor Bender: ...discussion?
Mike Couzzo: At the direction of the ... the Mayor and Council, the
Department went out and secured proposals from aquatic maintenance
contractors. Three were submitted... one came back saying that he
could do what the City Manager determined was needed and that was
to provide for mechanical harvesting. And, in accordance with the
memo that I have submitted to you on September 24th, the
contractor gave us a price for 90 acres of approximately $300,000
to remove aquatic vegetation to a depth of approximately five feet
across the 90 acres and 15 fee ... to a depth of 15 feet across a
10-acre section. That's ... we are looking for some direction as to
how to proceed from this point.
C/M,Schumann: Let me ask you a question here, on this minimum of
five feet.
Mike Couzzo: Yes, sir.
C/M Schumann: Let's say the depth in that ... some of those areas
is 10 or 15 or 20.
Yes, Sir.
C/M Schumann: We're only going down five feet ... a minimum of
five. Do we have any type of readout on this as to whether this
is gonna do the job or not do it by taking off only five feet?
You're not gonna kill the vegetation by ... like you're not gonna
kill grass when you mow it.
Mike Couzzo: Exactly.
C/M SChalmann: In other words, if you don't get the roots on this,
we're wasting our time.
Mike Couzzo: Well.
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Mayor Bender: Well, there's a ... there's a ... I think you didn't
finish the whole program. This is just a cutting. Then you
have ... don't you have other things there? Why don't you complete
the whole thing?
Okay.
Mayor Bender: Explain everything about the...
Mike Couzzo: Let ... let me go back and answer your question. That
will be the first part. The second part, it would be the ... the
Department would then go in immediately after and ... uh... well, and
have to remove... The $300,000 is just for harvesting it. They
will dump it in designated areas. The Department would have the
appropriate manpower and the equipment and a disposal site for
this project.
V/M Katz: Which department?
Dina McDermott: Public Services, us.
Mike Couzzo: Public Services.
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VZM Katz: So all they're gonna do is cut it and stack it and
we've got to move it.
Mike uzzo: Yes, sir. And thirdly, which may answer part of
your question, Councilman, is that after this is done, the
Department, the Public Services Department would have to
immediately go in and apply chemical treatment to ensure that the
plants would die.
C/M AbramowitZ: Mr. Mayor.
Mayor Rendpr: Yeah, yes, go ahead.
C/M Abra,mQkl tz: Uh...I... I'm very puzzled here. Last Thursday at
a Broward County meeting, I had the occasion to talk to Roy
Reynolds and everyone, and I think everyone knows who he is, he is
the head honcho of the Broward County Water District. And .... uh...
Roy was kind enough to spend about an hour with me after the
meeting and the subject of what we spoke about is exactly what
we're talking about.
Now, I don't know...uh...I don't know who is ... uh...I mean
giddyapping on this one over here, but, let me tell you what I
have found out. And ... uh...I have found out that these ... this
Hydrilla that we're talking about and these plants are loaded with
pods and as you harvest them, and as you pick them up, you release
millions upon millions of seeds who will then sink to the ... the
bottom and start growing again. So, from the off -set, mechanical
harvesting to me is a... is a... is a term... a long-term disaster.
It's ridiculous. That's Number one.
Number two, I question why all of a sudden the price went from
$500,000 down to $300,000 and,s in talking to Michael, I found
out, as he just stated, that the $500,000 was with them taking it
away, the $300,000 is with us taking it away, which necessitates
for a period of three months, a minimum of three men, two large
trucks and two backhoes, which means that has to be taken away
from other projects that these people are working on.
I also asked Roy, there were some very, very enlightening things
that I came up with and Mike, before I go any further, this thing
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about the seeds. Is this something, have you heard about this? I
mean, is this something you were aware of?
Mike Couzzo: Yes.
C/M Abramowitz: Okay. Uh...in other words ... uh...Staff knew
about ... uh... this ... this problem with the seeds. When you harvest
this, you're releasing millions of... of potential, not potential,
new...new areas of growth.
Mike Couzzo: We're aware of that.
C/M Abramowitz: Okay, Number One. Number Two, we talked uh...
about fish. Now he tells me that the fish will eat only certain
types of vegetation. There are, and by the way, I must tell you
that he has indicated that the entire Broward County, some more
and some less, have this problem. This is not only Tamarac. That
the fish will eat some Hydrilla and there is another type of
vegetation, and I don't remember the ... the technical name of it,
that the fish will not touch at all.
Mike Couzzo: Hygrophila.
C/M Abramowitz: That's exactly. That's what it is. They will
not touch it. So, in other words, he said, "There is no...". The
only overall long-term, as permanent a you can get solution, is to
address it with the chemicals and keep at it, and keep at it, and
keep at it. Now, somewhere along the line, I think it was at the
last meeting when we discussed this, I was led to believe
that ... um ...or John told me this, John told me this, because I'm
sure each of us question him if not daily, very frequently about
what's happening with the canals. He tells me that there is a
marked improvement in the canals and we are making headway. Now,
if somebody is so hot to trot, okay, to spend money and do the
job, why don't we then take and go to a company and we have four
people and two boats working, Mike?. Is that what we have?
Mike Couzzo: We have more than four people and we have two boats
and we've just recently equipped a specialized mobile spray unit
that can go behind condominiums.
C/M,Ahramowitz: Well, okay. Whatever the case may be. If that
be the case, why not go to somebody... instead of spending $300,000
and a fortune of money and taking this crap away...
We're not spending it, Norman, we're discussing it.
C/M Abramowitz: Okay.
C/M Schumann: Don't get ahead of the horse.
C/M Abramowitz: Well, the fact of the matter is...
C/M Schumann: You don't know what you're talking about here.
You're beating around the bush and saying nothing. Now, what are
trying to say.
C/M Abramowitz: Well, if you give me a chance, Hank, I'll say it.
C/M Schap: Well, I've been listening here for 10 minutes and I
don't know what you're talking about.
C/M Abramowitz: I've been talking for three minutes and I'm just
telling you what we have in front of us is a boondoggle.
C/M Schumann: I can read it and I know it is.
C/M Abramowitz: Okay. Now, let me tell you the solution that in
my mind is to go out, hire a company, hire a fair amount of people
on a ... on a term contract. Let them go out. Do exactly what
we're doing. Spend maybe $80,000 or $90,000 bucks, not $300,000
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or $500,000 and continue in the ... in the area that the experts say
is the only one that can correct this. It's as simple as that.
Mayor Bender: First of all, let me say a couple of things. First
of all, we're not doing anything yet. This was brought ... I asked
that we have this Workshop so everything is brought to the people
here, the Council for them to discuss it and no decisions were
made on it. Michael knows that. Okay. It's here to define it.
Now, it's not a matter of, you know, rushing into anything. We
did send a letter out three months ago saying that we were going
to do something within 90 days. The information I used was what
Public Works gave me, okay. So, we're trying to keep a schedule
on the 90 days to show that something is being done. Now this
doesn't necessarily have to be the thing that's gonna be done.
Whatever your pleasure is, whatever you feel should be done, let's
get it ... let's get off the ball and... and... you know, get ... do...
do something. That's all I'm saying.
C/M Abramowitz: Who said 90 days? I'm curious to find out who
gave a guaranty of 90 days?
Mayor Bender: We didn't give any guarantees. They said approxi-
mately 90 days and that came from Public Works and the City
Manager.
C/M Schreiber: In the discussion it came out that in 90 days they
would address the problem and show the public that something was
happening. That's the 90 days. Can I ask some questions?
Mike...
Mike Couzzo: Yes,
Sir.
C/M Schreiber: In
the removal of the aquatic
plants that this
company is going to
take off, you're gonna use
so much help and
material. Have you
estimated the cost to the
City during that
three-month period?
Did you come up with any
kind of numbers?
Mike Couzzo: What we just figured that what ... what they have done
is they said they needed a three-month time frame in which to
accomplish the harvesting. What we would have to do is to provide
them a ... uh...a...
CLM___Schreiber: Give them a...
Mike Couzzo: ... backhoe...
C/M _Schreiber: A ... a...a... do...
Mike Couzzo: ...backhoe or two, a couple of work trucks...
C/M Schreiber: ...you have a ... a ballpark figure what it would
cost the City?
Mike Couzzo: I figure it's $50,000 or $60,000.
C/M SQhLgiber: All right. So, we're talking about like $360,000,
Three hundred and sixty...
Mike Couzzo: Right. Yeah. You have to add the other side on.
C/M _Schreiber: Excuse me. There's a big question of whether the
mechanical harvesting will work anyway and I don't think you
believe it will because in my discussions with you, you seemed to
feel that C/M Abramowitz said that the pods released when the
harvesters will create new growths so we'll continually have a
problem. Not only that, you're not going down to the base,
you're only going five foot down.
C/M Schumann: You're wasting time here. You're not digging the
roots up.
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C/M Schreiber: Let me ... let me finish.
Mike Couzzo: Okay. Okay.
C/M Schreiber: It's obvious that probably the most successful way
to do it is to do it with chemicals and not with harvesting.
In... in essence, why go into a harvesting program that's not going
to work anyway. What we want to do is show the people of this
City the fact that we're charging 'em $2 a month and we're doing
something. So we have an option... either to hire a company to
come in and do this on a complete program, chemically wise, or
have our own people do it if you hire enough help or what,
whatever. We have ... I've got an estimate here from Lake Doctors
who spelled out a program that you must have. It talks about
monthly treatment, coming in, doing the whole job, and they charge
$13,300 a month, which is $159,600 over a year.
Mike ,Couzzo: Right.
S/M Schreiber: Now that's not a bad figure compared to what has
been offered. Can the City do better? Can the City ... uh... let's
say put down six or eight teams, two -man teams and go out. The
idea is to show the public that we're doing something. Once they
see boats on the canal cleaning and working, they're happy.
Mike Couzzo: Right.
C/M Schreiber: And ... and if it's done right, I think it will be
successful. That's to be seen.
Mike CgUZTD: Let me just...let me just say about mechanical
harvesting. What it does do is it gives you an immediate ... uh...
C/M Ss umann: Cosmetic cuts.
Mike Couzzo: Cos ... right. It gives you an immediate fix. That's
exactly right. What it does in very highly concentrated areas, is
it removes them and it...it gives you that immediate. But it's
not ... it's not going to be cure-all. It has to be immediately
followed up by a chemical treatment. This is going to be a
process, Gentlemen, that you're going to have to be involved in
every month, of every year, forever.
C/M 5gh,reiber: Forever?
Mike Couzzo: And the ... the chemicals have the longest ... the
longest and the most potent treatment because what it is is
they're called systemic chemicals which when the plant grows like
this, the ... hits the plant, goes down through the plant, goes, as
C/M Schumann's looking for, goes all the down in through the root
system, kills the entire plant. Kills the seedlings so they don't
regenerate. That ... that's what you want to do ultimately.
To answer C/M Schumann's question before, if you have a 15, 20
foot plant, you cut five feet off the top of the plant, what
you've done is you've eliminated five feet at the top growth and
if that's what you're looking for, then...
QZMSChumann: You put a band -aid on an incision...
Mike Couzzo: ...all right... but... but it's coming back up.
C/M Schreiber: Where are the pods? The pods are on top of the
plants.
Mike Couzzo: The pods are throughout the plant.
C/M Schreiber: Oh.
Mike Couzzo: They're gonna be thrown all over the place.
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C/M Schreiber: By ... by cutting it, you're releasing the pods.
Mike Couzzo: Absolutely. All right.
Dina McDermott: Mr. Mayor.
C/M Abramowitz: For a half -a --million dollars, it's just a boon-
doggle.
Q/M Schumann: Like ... like C/M Abramowitz says, "You've got to
kill it or you're wasting your time". Now I've looked at some of
these photographs here and one of them shows that Roto-Tiller from
Aqua Mark for aquatic removal. If you don't get the roots on
this, you're just...
Mike_Couzz: Right.
Q/M Schumann: ...spinning your wheels.
Mike Couzzo: And what I was going to say is...
C/M Schumann: I wouldn't spend $30,000 to do that.
Mike CoUZZ : ...what I mentioned was that out of the 90 acres,
the contractor is going to use that Mog for 10 of the ac... 10 of
wha... acres that we're going to determining the worse. If we
wanted to use the Mog for the entire 90 acres, that price is going
to drop... jump off dramatically.
Mayor Bender: What ... what price did he give you for
maintenance...
Mike Couzzo: His price for maintenance...
MayQg Bender: ...per month...
Mike Couz72 ...was if I recall about two... about $19,000...
Mayor Bender: That's right...
Mike Couzzo: ... per month and it was somewhere in the area of
$240,000 annually.
Mayor Bender: That's... that's a big nut, too.
Mike Couzzo: Yeah. That's a large number.
C/M Abramowitz: Do you...
Mayor Bender: I feel ... I feel that we can do it ourselves cheaper
than what they want.
V/M Katz: Everybody's bypassing Dina and she's champing at the
bit.
MavgK Bender: Go ahead.
Dina McDermott: Mr. Mayor ... uh...several months ago the Public
Services Department did take a much more aggressive means of
chemical treatment and we need to decide which direction we'd like
to go and whether we buy more chemicals, add more Staff or
contract out. And my recommendation would be if we're going to
contract out to get chemical treatment, we need to address the
different bids that we did receive. And we have funding available
to do that.
Mayor Bender: Funding available to do what?
1
E
Dina MCDermott: To ... to do chemical treatment.
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Mayor Bender: Oh ... okay.
Dina McDermott: If the Council chooses to do chem...additional
chemical treatment in addition to what Staff is presently doing.
C/M AbrdMowitz: Are these the only three people in...in... that
you know of who can, forget about mechanical harvesting, are these
the only people who can bid on the project of...
Dina McDgrmott: No.
C/M Abramowitz: ... doing...all right? So...
Dina McDermott: We can go out for bid again...
C/M Abramowitz: So... so...
Dina McDermott: ...if you choose too.
...I have seen this Council over here, when they
went to spend $4,000, say they want all kind of documentation and
backup. Spend this kind of money if the Council so decides that's
the way to go, then I would like to go out for bid again. I'm not
going to go out and spend... I'm not going to vote to spend a -half -
a -million bucks or $300,000 just...uh... you know for cosmetics.
Mayor Bender: Well, uh...let me say this. Of the three bids,
explain to the Council that two of the bidders didn't ... uh... want
to do anything ... uh... on mechanical harvesting.
Dina McDermott: Okay. Of the three bids that we received, we had
received a bid from Aquajet which was $48,000 for an Advisor to
tell us what to do. Obviously, that's something that we do not
need at this time.
C/M Schumann: Next case.
Mayor —Benda : Okay.
Dina MCDer ott: The second one was Aquatic Vegetation Control.
Q/M Schumann: I can tell you what to do, too, for nothing.
Dina Mgper tt: Of course.
Mayor Bender: And... and... what's the next one? I want you to
hear this.
Dina McDermott: The... the... the next one is Aquatic Vegetation
Controlling and it provides no mechanical harvesting. However, in
their bid I do believe that they did included... they did include a
chemical treatment in the amount of $93,000. It was not a very
good...
Mavor Bender: What...
Dina McDermott: ...program.
Mayor Bender: ...when you say $93,000. For what?
Dina McDermott: $93,600 for payment for spraying of our canals
but they didn't give us...
Mayor Bender: For... for what? For one shot?
Dina McDermott: They really didn't specify.
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Dina McDermott: So it's not a very clear bid so obviously that
wouldn't be acceptable.
Mayor Sender: I'm... I'm saying this is what we've got. We've got
three bids.
C/M Schumann: Tell 'em that we have to provide these people...
Mayor Bender: Okay.
Dina McDermott: Exactly. The next one was Environmental Waterway
Management which is this Company that would provide mechanical
harvesting and/or for $99,000, chemical treatment. But if the
Council desires us to go out for bid for chemical treatment, we
can rebid it.
C/M Abramowitz: Mr. Mayor.
Go ahead.
C/M AbraMowitz: I just wanna...I just wanna make some ... a
short... Dina...
Dina McDermott: Yes, Sir.
Mike Couzzo: They didn't bid recently.
C/M Abramowitz Roy Reynolds gave me a name that I gave to you
of the most proficient and experienced man in this ... in Broward
County.
s _ O - 1-1
C/M aramowitz: He told me that he would make sure that he would
work with the Staff.
Mike Cni=o: He has been working with us. His name is Ross
Hooks..
C/M Abramowitz: Oh... okay. But he would...
Mayor Benue: He has been working with us...
C/M Abramowitz: ...devote time to us...
Mayor Bender: ...he has been working with us.
C/M Abtamowit7.: Okay, and I would appreciate if I get his...
Mayor Bender: Vice Mayor.
V/M „Katz: Two things. Number One, Lakes of Carriage Hills. We
have somebody that comes in and treats all our lakes and... and
it's been very successful ongoing thing. We don't really have a
problem except that we pay them. So, if you want to check with
the Board of Directors in Lakes of Carriage Hills, who they use
and how much they pay and what kind of experience. That ... that's
fine. Uh... there is another contractor that does work for Bermuda
Club on the same type of basis. Uh... their Board, and I spoke at
their Association last week, and ... uh... they are ... are happy.
They would just assume keep what they have and not pay the $2.
But ... uh... you may want to check with them. Dina, you said there's
funding available. Where is that funding?
Dina McDermott: Well presently, under the Stormwater Management
Program, we haven't received any revenues as of yet.
V/M Katz: But that's where you...
Fj
1-1
Dina McDermott: But, well ... the finance source that is available
to us is our Cash Pooled Fund which is the fund that would
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contribute money to spend to do any kind of intervention at this
point. It wouldn't be ... we don't have any $2 coming in yet but as
it comes in it would reimburse the Cash Pooled Fund. Before Mary
Blasi left, that's the recommendation that she had and that's how
you adopted the budget for the Stormwater Utility. Is that you'd
have a Stormwater Utility Fund. As the revenues come in, if we
had any previous expenditures prior to the revenues coming in, we
would use our Cash Pooled Fund money cash.
V/M Katz: And that with what's left was $140,000 that's ... uh...
left in the General Fund is a surplus.
They're two different items.
Mayor Bender: No, that's a different item.
Dina McDermott: Cash flow...
V/M Katz: Okay. Let me understand...
Dina McDermott: ...it's like our major checking account for the
entire City.
V/M Katz: ...let me understand what you're saying.
Dina McDermott: Okay. We have a Cash Pooled Fund. It's all of
our cash ... all of our available cash within the City.
V/M Ka: Daily?
Dina McDermott: And on ... on occasion when we have an expenditure
that we need but we don't have the revenue coming in to match that
expenditure, we borrow money from the Cash Pooled Fund. When the
revenues come in, we reimburse that Fund.
Mayor Bender: It's an operational cash fund.
y/K-Katz: Wait a minute. Just ... just a minute. Wha... what
you're saying is that this Cash Pooled Fund has already been
dedicated funds to other things but what you're doing is money
comes in to Treasurer here today and... and it's a Cash Pool until
you disburse it tomorrow and in the interim you're expecting to
utilize that Fund?
Dina McDermott: We can. It's an option avail...
y/M Katz: I ... I...
Y/M Katz: Okay.
...able to us...
Isn't that Fund...
...for this program.
C/M Schreiber: ...invested daily?
V/M__Kat_z: Just a minute, Joe. I ... if...if that money is
available today for a dedicated use tomorrow and you use it for
something other than the dedicated use, what happens when this
bill has to be paid and that money isn't there?
Dina McDermott: Well, there is money. There's daily balances
that are available and they fluctuate on a daily basis. And yes,
the money is used for investments. The Investment Advisory Board
presently, at the time, would like to take all the money and put
it into investments and we're saying, "No. We've got some
expenditures that we need to do on short-term problems that we
need the funding for." And Finance is recommending that if we
choose to take this type of intervention before we receive the
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Page 10
revenues for the Stormwater Management, we can use some of this
funding. I don't have a balance for you today but it's ... it's
available.
Mike • Maybe I can help explain it just a little bit. It
would be as if you have your mortgage and you have 12 monthly
mortgage payments over the course of a year. What happens is out
front you have all of those mortgage payments but you're only
going to use them every month.
Y.ZMKatz: Mike, you don't have to explain.
Mike Couzzo: Okay. You've got it, right?
C/M Abramowitz: It's called creative financing, Michael. It's
how guys wind up in jail.
Mike Couzzo: I'm only telling you how it goes.
V/M Katz: That's what I used to do when I first started in
business and I didn't have the money, I'd write a check from a
Connecticut account and deposit it in New York. It used to take
14 days. In that 14 days, I knew that I could put it back. But,
that's not what I would like to see the City do.
Dina McDermott: Mr. Mayor.
V/M Katz: No problem.
Mayor Bender: Yes?
Dina McDermott: Would you like to give us Council direction?
Mayor Bender: Yes. 'That's what ... that's what this discussion is
about today. To get all the facts and ... and we want ... we want to
give you direction.
may: It was all legal, by the way.
Mike Couzzo: So, may I just interject one other thought. What
you're suggesting as what the contractors are doing at Lakes of
Carriage Hills and some other areas, they're using a chemical that
we have not wide ... used wide -spread throughout the City that is
the most effective chemical on the market.
V/M Katz: I'm aware of that.
Mike ,Qg11zzo: And the reason we have not used it is because of the
fact that we need to advertise that we are using it, we need to
tell the public that they cannot draw down for irrigation
purposes, that water that's been treated...
C/M Schreiber: What is that chemical?
Mike _Couzzo: It's called ... uh...Sonar.
C/M Schreiber: Sonar?
Mike Qouzzn: Yeah. What happens is if you ta...if you treat
the —the body of water with Sonar, then you take the irrigation
and put it on the lawn, you run the potential risk, and I don't
believe the risk is high.
C/M ,Schreiber: So the grass burns off.
Couzzo:Mike Absolutely. We can ask (words inaudible)
Dina McDermott: We can ask (words inaudible).
1
Mike Couzzo: So, you have to tell these people ... but see...let me
tell give you the next...
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C/M Schreiber: You can do that.
Mike Couzzo: ...equation. When you advise that, it's not a 30-
day program. It's not like you're saying, "You can't draw down
for 30 days because...".
C/M Schumann: Residual.
Mike Couzzo: Yeah, there is a residual and we're going to be
doing constant application.
Mayor Bender: We have a lot of people using...
V/M Katz: Of course they do.
C/M Schreiber: Most of them draw down...
Mike Couzzo: So you need to look at that. So we have been using
less ... less dramatic chemicals. But we are certainly looking at
using that chemical. It is the most effective chemical on the
market.
V/M Katz: We have grass on our banks. We have grass on all our
lawns and this water is taken right from the same lakes that are
treated. Now if it can be done in Bermuda Club and Carriage
Hills, it can be done anywhere else.
Mike Couzzo: But, what I was going to suggest to you is although
I believe the probability and the possibility of having a negative
effect and adverse effect on a lawn is small, it still exists and
we have a responsibility. Even the manufacturer tells you of
letting these people know. Then you ... you eliminate the burden by
advertising and telling people, "You should not draw down". And,
if they choose to, they do it at their own risk.
C/M Schreiber: You... you... you destroy all the lawns at all the
condominiums...
Mike Cguzzo: It's not ... it's not a likely...
Dina McDarmott: Not bad. Than we can Xeriscape.
Mike Couzzo: ...situation.
Mayor Bender: I ... I had a meeting with ... uh... with Mike and Dina
McDermott on Friday and we discussed this thing and we all
discussed a contingency plan and the contingency plan was that you
were to hire as many people as you need, not to do the harvesting
and to, you know, have a physical appearance of a lot of people
working, doing the job and proceed along those lines. Now, that's
one of the alternatives we spoke about. That's ... I'm putting on
the table as an alternative. And let ... let's see if we can give
him some direction.
C/M SchUMan: What are other cities doing?
Mayor Bender: I'll get you in a minute.
Mike „Couzzo: The ... the main thing is that ... that the most
effective long-range plan is going to be a combination of ... uh...
in my opinion, chemical and biological treatments which is the
utilization of chemicals to treat the fish. We're going to need
to get into a fish program so the fish eat away. It's not a one-
shot deal. You're not going to put 'em in this year and then say,
"I'm not putting fish in...
C/M Abram witz: That's right.
Mike colazzo: ...for 10 more years". You're going to lose some of
them through death or whatever.
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C/M Schreiber: Could you... could you vacuum the surface of the
water and clear off and... and give an appearance...
Mike Couzzo: We could do a little of that. We have a vacuum...
C/M Schreiber: You know why? Because when people look at the
canals...
Mike Couzz o : Sure. We have ...
C/M Schreiber: ...they see it is covered with all that green...
...done that a little bit.
C/M Snhteib r: ...floating (words inaudible).
Mike Couzzo: It's algae.
C/M �chKeib r: If you could vacuum that up when you go into your
program...
Mike Q_o_zzo: Let me give you another quick...
C/M Schreiber: It would give a better appearance.
Mike Couzzo: ...quick 30-second problem. Once you take
the ... chem... the Hydrilla... Hygrop..., spray it and kill it, what
happens is, it dies. But then it provides a nutrient for algae to
develop.
C/M_Snhumann: Sure.
So ... it's ... you've killed one problem but created
another. You can't not kill this problem without creating this
problem. So then we treat for the algae. So you have to
be ... it's an intensified program. Like I said, we have boats in
the water now. We have the other rig running. As of October,
another boat has been appro... been appropriated. We can go with
certainly with what the Mayor is suggesting. Put a large number
of people in. I think that it would be very effective and I think
that you'd achieve the ... the visual results in the community that
I believe you're all looking for.
C/M Abramowitz: Before I ... before I do anything, before I would
go out and hire a lot of people, I would like everything to think
of the long-term ramifications of this because it'll come a time
where you don't need that many people for the lake. Let me
finish. So, first of all, I'd like to know what it costs...
Mike Couzzo• Okay.
Q/M Abramowitz: okay, versus hiring somebody else. No question.
Hiring somebody else in the short-term might cost more but in the
long-term, might be effective and the second recommendation I
would make to anybody ... to anybody, that gives a guaranty, how
long it's gonna take before anything gets done. I would like them
never to do that again because that's as bad as you possi... I
don't know who did it and I don't know who made the statement and
I don't know... it certainly didn't... didn't come from me or didn't
come from anything that I heard about 90 days.
And, there is nothing wrong with going out and telling the people
what the truth is. There is nothing wrong with that. If you tell
them that we are addressing it aggressively, we are going, we are
spending the money, we're doing it. It didn't ... it didn't occur
in three weeks or five weeks or 90 days and it's not gonna be gone
in 90 days. It's as simple as that. I don't know why everybody
is so preoccupied with seeing a lot of people out there and having
the ... these are not stupid people. If you tell 'em what the truth
is and tell 'em what you're doing and tell 'em this is the long-
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Page 13
range program where this won't occur again, people are gonna fly
with ya.
Mayor Bender: Well, let me just...
C/M Schrelb r: They won't believe you.
Mayor Bender: Well let me ... let me just say this.
Mayor Bender: Let me just say this.
Maybe your people won't but first of all...
C/M S_chreiber: My people are your people.
Mayor Bender: First of all let me say this ... that I have received
at least three letters with at least 50 minimum ... 50 names in each
one, bitching and complaining like crazy that they want something
done with the canals. I furnished all this information to our
City Manager. Okay. And we had many meetings on it to see what
we can get ... do about getting a program going. Now the people,
just as recently as ... as last week, called up and said they have
ducks walking across the canals 'cause that's how thick it is
with...
C/M Abramowitz: Ah, that's one person. Maybe, Mr. Peretzman.
Mgvor_Bender: All right? It wasn't Mr. Peretzman.
Q/M Schreiber: He's a very busy man.
Mavor Bender: What —what I'm trying to say is, "You can talk all
you want". The public out there wants to see some action. And I
think it behooves us, as Elected Officials, to do something. All
right? I don't care what you want to do but get something going.
It's as simple as that. Now, I said to Mike, Friday, "It looks to
me like this is a lot of money. I don't particularly care to
spend that kind of money". And Mike recommended that for this
kind of money and about half of that money they ... they can do a
yeoman's job by hiring temporary people, okay, not permanent
people, temporary people, for as long as they need to clean this
thing up. And then, he'll have to make a decision how many he
wants main ... keep to maintain this thing.
C/M Abramowitz: Who knows if they have to licensed in order to
spray?
Mike Couzzo: Let me suggest ... let me suggest
Yes, they do.
Mike C iu= : ...let me suggest, wait a second, let me suggest a
course of action. They don't all have...
Dina McDermott: They all don't have to be....
Mike CouZzo: ...have to be licensed to spray.
Dina McDermott: ...licensed?
Mike C uzzo: No, they do not all have to be licensed to spray.
Mayor Bender: Just one person has to be licensed.
Mike Couzzo: One license can be used by 15 applicators. Okay, so
we... so we can ... they all don't have to be. Let me suggest to you
this course of action. That we will continue to provide service
as we have, an accelerated rate. We may intensive that and
simultaneously with doing that ... uh...in...in accordance with your
comments, we would look to hire and the Mayor was sugg... hiring
temporary personnel in order to achieve the desired goal on a
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Page 14
short-term, maybe three or four months.
And, in addition, at the same time, go out for a bid from private
contractors and get a price from them to see what that service
cost would be because they have a lot of the equipment and the
personnel on -hand to supplement what we're going to be doing in--
house. Then you'll have the option of choosing a variety, what's
the most economical way to do what you're looking for.
C/4 Abramowitz: How long would it take you if you were to start
tomorrow to put temporary help on, go through all the rigmarole,
do whatever you have...
Miko Couzgg: Temp...
C/M Abramowitz: ...to do.
Mike Couzzo: ...temporary help's easier, temporary help's faster.
C/M Abramowitz: Whatever the case may be.
Mike Couzzo: A couple of weeks.
C/M Abramowitz: Can we provide them, okay? In a couple of weeks
could you not have a bid?
Mike Couzzo: Sure.
C/M Abramowitz: Okay. So why don't ... why don't ... why doesn't
this group over here have before them both options before you
exercise your option.
Mike Couzzo: That's what I'm suggesting you do.
C/M_Abramowitz: No, I'm talking about not go out and hire help
tomorrow.
Mike Couzzo: No, no. I would ... what we would do immediately...
Mayor Bender: It takes two weeks.
Mike Couzzo: ...is do our people go out for bid if that's the
direction immediately and I can give you at the same time that you
analyze the bids, what it would cost us to bring temporary people
on to provide that service.
C/M Schreiber: Let me ask you a question. How many crews would
you need to be effective. In other words, you're using two -man
crews, right?
Mike Couzzo: Yes.
C/M Sclareibe How many crews would you need...
Mike _Couzzo: What we have...
C/M achreiber: to really be effective an ... and make an impact on
this problem.
Q/M_AbraMowitz: What about the boats?
Mike Couzzo: We have three crews currently working.
C/M SchreibeK : You don't have enough boats.
we ... we have two boats and we're purchasing another
boat as of October 1, which is right around the corner.
Well, would three crews be adequate to...
1
1
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Page 15
Mike Couzzo: I think that three crews, at ... from one of my
discussions with all of you, the three crews would be adequate
with the mobile unit once we knock down ... uh... the small problem.
We've identified that there are approximately 80 acres remaining
that have still have more than a problem that we'd like to have at
this time. Eighty acres
So, we'd like to get in. This is the ideal time to do it in
October and November because of the ... the growth of the plant now
starts to go into ... uh... a little bit of remission. This is when
you want to hit it. It's not in... it's not in a growth stage and
actually it's more vulnerable to chemical treatment at this time.
So now, we want to put more chemicals out there. You want to get
'em. At the same time, we want to supplement it by starting to
put in the fish every couple of months. A couple of thousand of
them, 3,000, and get that program started.
C/M Schreiber: How many crews do you have now?
Mike Qguzzfi: Three.
C/M Schreiber: Three. You have three now? So why can't you get
started now and at the same time bring in bids. You've got the
crews anyway.
Mike Couzzo: Let me suggest to you that...
C/M Schreiber: You're doing it.
Mike Couzzo: ...When we ... when we...
C/M Abramowitz: They're doing it now.
Mike Couzzo: ...when we tell the people we have been doing it.
That's why ... that's why the problem is so much less than what it
was. At one time we had one crew an —and one boat with one man
who went around in a truck and picked up some of the debris. That
was not enough to adequately address the problem that we
experienced over this past Summer. We realize that.
C/M Schreiber: All right, so you're working now and in the
meantime you can get the bids and make a comparison and decide
wha... what's the best course of action to take.
C/M Abramowitz: Excuse me. Mike, I'm sure that you know this,
but Roy told me that there are certain waterways within the system
that you are not allowed to put fish in. Now I'm not acq...I'm
not acquainted with it and ... but that's why I'm saying to you,
"Please, especially for free, get all the good advice that we
could get".
Mike Couzzo: We have and I have personally spoken to Roy and
individually mentioned before as the Gentleman by the name Mr.
Hooks. He has come out and analyzed our system. The only place
you can't put fish is in a contained... is in a non -con...
Dina McDermott: Non -contained.
Mike Couzzo: ...Thank you ... non -contained body of water. We have
designed a gate structure for the culverts so me fish remain in
the body of water that they're placed.
y/M Katz: This only holds true where you have a canal, okay?
Where you have lakes...
Mike Couzzo: Yeah, we don't have very many of them, though.
C/M Abramowitz: What, lakes?
Mike QoUzzo: Believe it or not. No, there —whether you
know ... you may see it as a lake but they're interconnected with a
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9/27/93/KJ
Page 16
culvert.
C/�ramowitz: Oh, I understand what you're saying, yeah.
Mike Couzzo: So, I ... I mean it may look like a lake, but they are
all interconnected.
V/M Katz: There is a difference though. We have, give you
Carriage Hills, as two 24-inch out -law ... out -fall lines which are
overflow to... it
Mike Couzzo: Uh... huh.
Y/M K,tt : ... uh... keep ... uh... uh...a steady level. If these go
into a canal, you're going to lose all your fish. As soon as that
water level gets above so that the 24-inch two 24's... uh...
Mike Couzzo: That would probably...
V/M Katz: ...have water in them.
Mike,Couzzo: ...that would probably require sp... uh... uh... a
gated...
Dina McDegmott: A screen.
Mayor Bender: Or screen in it.
Mike o: ...or some type of screening device.
MavQr r: Yeah, you have to screening to ... to ... to prevent
this.
C/M Abramowitz: This... this... the only thing that disturbs me is
and what really bothers me is the absolute haste, okay. Everybody
wants to do it. Everybody is besieged with the telephone calls.
It just so happens the first positive thing that I've heard about
this in the last four months is that I spoke to somebody ... uh...in
Temple and he said to me, "What's happening?" He said, "Our body
of water is looking better. Is that temporary?" He says, "It's
looking better."
Mike Couzzo: Yeah.
C/M Abramowitz: So ... so. I mean that doesn't mean that everything
is good...
�_ • -11•- •
C/M Abramowitz: ...but if we're gonna go into a long-range
program which ap... necessitates spending large amounts of money,
let's do it properly, let's do it effectively and let's not
go ... uh...let's not be so concerned with public ... uh... uh... you
know...uh... uh... views.
V/M_Katz: Opinions.
C/M Abramowitz: Yeah, what they look at. Let's do it right.
Mayor Bender: Norman, this is what I've been trying to do. You
say it's in haste. There is nothing haste about this thing.
About a year ago, one year ago, we got on this subject. It's a
matter of record, and we asked the...
C/M Abramowitz: But you didn't have the money then.
Mayor Bender: We had ... we had...
C/M Abramowitz: You have the money now. Why didn't we do it a
year ago. Why didn't we pass this legislation a year instead of
now!
City Council Workshop Meeting
9/27/93/KJ
Page 17
Mayor Bender: You let me talk, please?
C/M Abramowitz: Okay.
Mayor Bender: A year ago I asked the City Manager to get on this
thing and he said he would. All right. And he made an attempt to
do it. I've been in touch with them all during...a long period of
time. It got out of hand, okay? Tha... that's the God's honest
truth. It got out of hand, all right. Now we have to get it back
into shape. So it's not a rush thing. It's been going on for a
year. Now, that's why I'm saying, we got to get direction. Now,
nobody's rushing here individually. We're doing it as a team and
we want to give direction to these people, to Public Works, and
how to proceed on this thing. Now I'd like to get some
recommendations...
C/M SChreiber: I ... I think that they have some direction now. In
other words, it...it...it seems to be a consensus that we should
go into a chemical program rather than harvesting. We should
secure bids and at the same time we're working on the problem.
When we get the bids, we'll see whether we, the City, can do the
job or whether outside contractors.
Mayor Bender: Okay, now I heard the...
GIM Abramowitz: I'll ... I'll fly with that.
Mayor Bender: Okay.
But the course of action is with chemicals.
Mayor Sender: Okay, I agree with that too. Now, as far as I'm
concerned, Mike said in two weeks he'll have both bits.
All right.
Dina MQDermott: We'll need to go out for bids.
Mnygr Bender: All right? He'll have the ... he'll have his
figures...
Mike Couzzo: Yeah.
Mayor Bender: ...and the contractors.
Mike Couzyo: We'll need to advertise. I think we can because of
the fact that we've been out a little bit. I think we can fast
track it. Two weeks is real optimistic, but...
Dina_-MCQ!Qrmott: Mr. Mayor, please.
C/M Abramowitz: Well, all I'm saying is, "Let's not give them any
promises".
Mike _Co,uZzo: Yeah, but I think...I think that if the...
C/M _Abramoyvitz: Let's not give 'em any promises.
Mayor Bender: Let me finish please. If...if...if maybe you can
get some of these things by phone...
Dina MCDermott--: No. Mayor, please.
Mayor Bender: Yes?
Dina MCDermott: It's...for the kind of money that we're talking
about, it realistically, will probably be over $10,000, which
is ... meaning that we have to go out for bid. Let's go out for
bid. We can get the paperwork going today. We'll get the
bidder's list together. With ever ... what ever vendors have bid to
City Council Workshop Meeting
9/27/93/KJ
Page 18
us previously, like for Carriage Hills, Bermuda Club, we'll find
out all the companies that are available. We'll send them a bid
package. We need to advertise.
Maayor Bender: Oh ... oh ... okay, fine. That's one part. The other
part is you have to prepare some...
Mike Couzzo: Yes, we'll look at something.
Mayor Bender: something for the cities. What the expenses are it
for the cities.
Mike Couzzo: There is one other...there is one other alternative
if yu... you choose to uh... uh...select it as something we want to
do now. Roy Reynolds and his people will be willing to come in
immediately and assist with their equipment and their spray units
and their personnel at a rate of $65 an hour. I believe it's
right in that area ... uh...and the chemical cost. If we wanted to
do that right away, we could probably do that.
C/M Abramowitz: Let me address that, please? I have asked him
and the thing that you have to be very careful of, that'll be the
cheapest thing that you could possibly do, including hiring your
own. But the difference is, does he have the availability...
Mike Couzzo: That's one (words inaudible)
C/M Abramowitz: ...to address ... to address our problem here, in a
timely fashion. In other words, I would vote for that in a
second, in a second, because that certainly is the cheapest. You
can cut it ... bring it on and cut it off in a minute. You have no
problem and he knows he's got to take care of us. But the
difference is, if he wants to send out a crew, you follow me...
Mike CQUZZo: Yes.
C/M Abramowitz: ... that ... that's not wha... what I think we're
looking for.
Mike Couzzo: Yes. Let me suggest —let me suggest this to you.
C/M Schumann: There are what, County Employees?
Dina McDermott: Yes.
Q/M Abramowitz: Yeah.
Mike Couzzo: These are ... these are Water Management District
employees. Let me suggest this to you that...
C/M Abramowitz: Not County but Water Management.
Dina McDermott: South Florida Water Management.
Mike Couzzo: We ... and ... we do that now and if I can get them to
come in, we'll do that up to and not to exceeding $10,000 so we
don't have the bid problem and then we'll see what their
performance is so that you'll be able to look at what... it -
Mayor Bender: That's... that's
Mike Couzzo: ...bringing in temporary people...
Mayor Bender: ...all right.
Mike_Couzzo: ...what their performance and what's the bid.
Mayor, Bender: I'll fly with that.
Mike Co,Uzzo: You'll have three options.
City Council Workshop Meeting
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Page 19
Mayor Sender: I ... I ... I'll fly with that.
C/M Schreiber: The... the... the only problem with that it'll be...
it'll be like a contractor's got three jobs. He starts one,
leaves it and in the middle goes to the second and continues.
Mike Couzzo: No. They're gonna work with us.
QZM Sr_hreibe He ... he may work one day and...
C/M Abramowitz: Joe...
C/M Schreiber: ...and never come back.
C/M Abramowitz: ...Joe, he will not.
that Board. He will not do that.
Mike Couzzo: Ev...
C/M Abramowitz: Take my word for it.
I happen to be Chairman of
Mike Couzzo: ...even if they were to do that, that it still ... it
would be a complement to what we're currently doing. It would
expedite...
C/M Schreiber: It would speed up the process.
Mike Cg_U= : ...the process.
Mayor Bead r: Yes, that's right.
We'll be able to bring that back as another option.
Mauer Be6dj,r: I ... I ... I think that's a good idea. To speed up
__thti , that * s ...
Mike Couzzo: We'll do that right away. Is ... do I have a
consensus if that's the way...
C/M Abramowitz: Oh, I would fly with that.
C/M Schreiber: If you feel it's worthwhile, go ahead.
Mike Couzzo: I think so. I think so.
Dina McDermott: Mr. Mayor, so... let me clarify so that we're all
on the same page. First thing we're gonna do is contract with
South Florida Water Management District for temporary assistance
not to exceed $10,000. The second thing is that we're gonna look
at the cost for expanding the program with City employees and
simultaneously go out for bid for chemical intervention.
Mayor Bender: Right, absolutely.
C/M Abramowitz: With one change, if I may, when you say, "Up to
$10,00011, if what he's doing proves very satisfactory, okay, I
would like you to let him know that you would like it based on,
you know, based on ... on...
C/M Schreiber: You tell 'em it's an experimental program.
Yeah ... that's right.
Mike Couzzo: The other...
C/M Abramowitz: Exactly.
Mike Couzzo: ...the other thing is once you let him...
C/M Abramowitz: Right.
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Page 20
Mike S'ouzzo: ...like this, up to the $10,000, when he gives you
his number in a couple of weeks, or whatever, he's going to give
you a real true assessment from being in the water.
C/M Abramowitz: Okay.
Mike Couzzo: And, he'll give you another professional opinion.
V/Ni_Katz: The other side of that is that the City Manager can
expend up to $10,000 without City Council approval. If it exceeds
$10,000, they have to come to City Council who is not arbitrarily
gonna withhold permission to expend the funds.
Dina McDermott: Okay?
Mayor Bender: Okay. I ... are we all on board on this?
Okay ... uh... any other ... uh...
VIM -Katz: Providing we have the funds.
Mayor Bender: Yeah..
C/M Abramowitz: We'll do some creative financing.
Maaygr Bender: Is there any other ... uh...items you want to talk
about? Nothing. Hearing none, it's now a 9:45 a.m. Meeting is
adjourned.
CAROL A. EVANS -
CITY CLERKS