HomeMy WebLinkAbout1980-04-11 - City Commission Workshop Meeting Minutes5811 NORTHWEST 88TH AVENUE 0 TAMARAC, FLORIDA 33321
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TELEPHONE (305) 722-5900
April 4, 1980
CITY OF TAMARAC
CITY COUNCIL
NOTICE'OF.-WORKSHOP MEETING
The Tamarac City Council will hold a
Workshop Meeting on Friday, April 11, 1980,
at 10:30 A.M., in Council Chambers on the
First Floor.
The following items will be discussed:
Item #1 - Fire Department Personnel Needs
for Balance of Fiscal Year-
1979/80.
Item #2 - Pre -Budget Review of Personnel
Needs of Fire Department for
Fiscal Year 1980/81.
Council may consider such other business as may
come before it.
All interested citizens are invited to attend.
MARILYN BERTHOLF
City Clerk
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CITY OF TAMARAC, FLORIDA
CITY COUNCIL WORKSHOP MEETING
APRIL 11, 1980
RE: FIRE DEPARTMENT PERSONNEL
ROLL CALL:
CALL TO ORDER:
PRESENT:
ABSENT AND EXCUSED:
ALSO PRESENT:
Mayor W. Falck
C/W Kelch
C/M Zemel
C/M Disraelly
V/M Massaro
E. Gross, City Mgr.
Carol Evans, Asst. City
Clerk
B. Simon, Fire Chief
Mayor Falck called the meeting to order stating that this
was a Workshop, City of Tamarac, City Council Notice, workshop
Meeting, Tamarac City Council, Friday, April 11, 1980 at 10:30
A.M. in Council Chambers and said the following items will be
discussed:
1) Fire Department personnel needs for
balance of fiscal year 1979-80.
2) Pre -budget review of personnel needs
of Fire Department for fiscal year
1980-81.
Mr. Ed Gross, City'Manager indicated that this meeting has
to do with two areas, first being the needs of the day, and
secondly to help the Fire Chief prepare his budget for the next
fiscal year. He said that the Fire Department was built using
federal funding to start with and Mr. Simon, during the past five
years, has built a Fire Department which we can all be proud of.
Mr. Gross said that we are getting ready to open up our second
station and when they began their budget over a year ago, they
had looked at the growth of Tamarac at that time, and since they
have had very heavy building over the last year, there was a
change in the building from a CBS major construction to a varied
construction, a lot of it using a great deal of wood and other
inflammable or more inflammable type of materials. For this
reason, Mr. Simon had to readjust some of his thinking as to his
manpower needs.
Mr. Gross further believes that with the memo received from
his office this morning, and Mr. Simon's report, Option #3 should
be implemented immediately so that the areas can be protected by
the two fire stations.
C/M Disraelly referred to the ladders and asked Mr. Simon
how many other stations have ladders equal to that. Mr. Simon
replied that none of them have. C/M Disraelly asked how many other
citie s can get up to 85 feet, take care of a 3-story building,
etc., and Mr. Simon replied in the immediate area of 4; Margate,
N. Lauderdale, Lauderhill and Lauderdale Lakes.
C/M Disraelly referred to the original plan that was
presented to them at the budget of last year, September 30th
past, mentioning that there were 17 men aboard, giving them a
minimum of 3 men at Station 1 and that on October lst 5 men were
added, giving them 22 men, an average of a little over 5 and
wanted those figures clarified by Mr. Simon. Mr. Simon replied
that it gave the department 5 at that point and as of May 1st, two
more men, which gives us 24 men, making 6 shift men and which would
leave 4 men at Station #1 and 2 men permanently at Station #2.
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April 11, 1980
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C/M Disraelly asked Mr. Simon it he is asking for 3 men
permanently minimum at Station 2 and Mr. Simon replied in the
affirmative and C/M Disraelly further said that they are talk-
ing minimums, because there are times probably that Station #1
goes up to 5 or 6 men. Mr. Simon said sure and that the two
men were offered with acceptability of a cross -trained cop that
would perform as a fire fighter. He went on to say that since
the budget was submitted, basic requirements for an involved
single family house is a 4 man crew, and they have had a couple
of test cases on it; the 4 men just about make it where every
function is completely used at a medium size fire in a one
family house.
C/M Disraelly asked that when Bailey Road goes out to a
single family fire, do a minimum of 4 men go out and Mr. Simon
replied that he didn't know as there was no way for him to tell.
C/M Disraelly asked Mr. Simon if his proposal was not to go into
cross -trained officers.
Mr. Gross said that what happened at this point is that
the cross -trained positions are working and both chiefs seem to
be satisfied with them at this point. He stated that unfortun-
ately because of the reduction of manpower in the Police Depart-
ment, they have had to have lesser training for them than the
Fire Chief would recommend, and these men have had to be used
more on patrol areas than we wanted to do to start with, and
for that reason we have not been able to get them completely
trained as fast as we originally wanted to.
C/M Disraelly said that before they get through with the
decisions of what we are going to do with the Fire Department in
the budget of next year, one shouldn't be handled without the
other and Mr. Gross replied that for the budget of next year,
they will be doing the Fire Department this year, not the budget
itself, and we will be giving direction now at the latter part
of the meeting. C/M Disraelly mentioned that it was proposed
last year that the method of handling both the Fire and Police
Departments was to have cross -trained officers and asked Mr.
Gross if they were changing their minds now about cross -trained
officers.
Mr. Gross stated that they were not changing their minds
but that it is taking them longer than they had anticipated.
C/M Disraelly referred to his memo which mentioned to transfer
4 of the cross -trained officers to the Fire Department and take
them out of the Police Department, and Mr. Gross answered that
this was correct, because they feel that with the length of time
involved and the immediate needs of the Fire Deparment, that
the staff would be better used in that area.
C/M Disraelly asked what happened to the police patrol
that is involved and Mr. Gross replied that the reasoning for
that as stated in his memo, is that they feel they have enough
police patrol now with the fact that they are no longer using
any policemen in outside agencies. C/M Disraelly asked that if
they didn't use these men in outside agencies and we cross -
trained them, would it be only a matter of 6 weeks to cross -
train them. Mr. Gross answered no, that the total amount of
training is a lot more than 6 weeks; that 6 weeks is the school-
ing only and it takes some time to get into the school, then
there's a substantial amount of training once they get out of
the school.
Mr. Simon said that they are instructed in the basics
in school, then they have to learn their techniques, their way
of doing things, which takes a couple of months, stating further
that they have not had the training periods yet to fully
evaluate the system. C/M Disraelly asked if the men he wants to
take out of the Police budget and put in the Fire budget will
still have to go to school for the 6 week period and Mr. Gross
replied that not all of them would, but they hope to get as
many certified firemen as they can.
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C/M Disraelly discussed the changing programs and Mr.
Gross answered that they want to continue that program in the
future with police and firemen, but at the present time, Mr.
Simon feels the immediate need is very important, and that
things have changed since t•he,budget and a larger staff is
needed than originally planned.
C/M Disraelly mentioned that there are certain areas of
the city indicated in Mr. Simon's report -that are covered by
Bailey Road consisting of 700 to 1000 units and asked if there
would be any manner of getting a contract with the county. Mr.
Gross replied that the county at this point does not feel there
is any reason to contract the service out to anybody because
they feel they adequately cover the area. C/M Disraelly called
attention to the fact that Bailey Road does not have a ladder
and Mr. Simon replied that they cannot service the Gate,
Woodland Meadows, The Mansions and Banyan Lakes which are two-
story buildings.
Mr. Gross said they have reciprocal agreements with other
cities which call in their equipment immediately and C/M
Disraelly stated that he is projecting the thought that this is
a station that is located immediately adjacent to all of this
unincorporated area, and he thinks it should be researched,
since they may be able to pick up $25,000 a year from the county.
Mr. Gross replied that the hook and ladder truck wouldn't
be in there and the North Lauderdale ladder truck is within the
same distance, probably even closer, than our ladder truck is,
and C/M Disraelly said not closer to The Gate. Mr. Gross
reoorted;'yes, it's off Rock Island Road and Rock Island Road
just opened up"and Mr. Disraelly said it is still north and we
are east of them.
C/W Kelch said that the hook and ladder truck isn't going
to be at Station #2, but will be stationed at Station #1 and
Mr. Disraelly said he still thinks we could service The Gate
from that area and thinks it should be explored. Mr. Gross said
they have already discussed that with them and they felt that
they did not wish to let go of any funds at the present time,
and that they adequately covered those areas.
Mayor Falck asked about the reference to east of N.W.
31st Avenue and wanted to know how much of that $12,000 would be
attributed to the proposal again in Option 1 and that if you go
this route, are you eliminating the $12,000 contract service or
the area east of 31, and Mr. Simon replied with a yes.
Mayor Falck stated that he had two feelings on this; one
is that he doesn't feel that they can go into that with them
until such time as Commercial Boulevard is completed due to
traffic proble ns, and secondly, if they did go into that, that
Lakes 1 and 2 still be under the county operation as that's
a little bit too far away from us he thought.
Mr. Simon said it was 3 miles and a fraction from that
station and then discussed the possibility of an automatic aid
contract where we would respond to certain areas of Gateway that
is highly industrial, and they would in turn respond to the same
area that was mentioned, Lakes 1 and 2; we would be the back-up
unit so he would still have the potential of two pumpers on
every structural fire regardless of whether it is Tamarac or
North Andrews.
C/W Kelch said that in other words, the fire station
location was never intended, from it's inception, to service
any area beyond that and it worries me that we are even consider-
ing it at this time. She asked if they had changes of thought
on that and would it actually include just the Boulevard.
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Mr. Simon answered C/W Kelch by saying that it would
include the Boulevard completely and the east end of the city
on this option. He further mentioned the school for thought
on that would be backed up by the Broward County Land Use
Plan which states "First Due Engine shall be within 3 miles",
and we would be in full compliance because of the improvement
in Commercial Boulevard when it is finished. C/W Kelch
asked if it would extend to 21st Avenue.or to Prospect Road
and Mr. Simon replied, all the way to 16th Avenue.
The Chief said that at the present time he has units
here that will back up everything of a structural fire in any
area, whether it is covered by Broward Central, which is North
Andrews, or Bailey Road. He went on to say that they do ride
on them, particularly if they are tied up or if they are working
someplace else, rather than to find out if they are exactly
going and we start in all areas.
C/W Kelch asked if they find that they are needed, or is
it just one of those things and the Chief replied that there
have been a couple of cases where in her section where they
came in and his way of fighting a fire was not exactly the way
other people would.
The City Manager said, for example, if a call comes in
to C/W Kelch's section or Treehouse, for instance, the engine
from house #1 automatically goes to the Turnpike and stops there,
and then they wait to be called in if needed; they don't go all
the way, but if they are needed, they are called in immediately
and they have been called in. Mr. Simon then said they usually
give us a quick call on the radio if it is not necessary to
respond.
C/W Kelch stated that we have increased our commercial
installations, but she still has qualms about the portion that
is now being covered by Andrews. The Chief replied that because
we are involved in some type of mutual aid, and because we have
asked for it more times than they have asked us, he feels that
it is a reciprocal moral obligation that if they can help, they
will, but they still have to provide a minimum degree of pro-
tection in the city, our city, and it has worked out pretty well.
The Chief said that they are going into a thing that they call
box alarm cards, where certain areas we are assigned even outside
the city, because the reciprocity would be on a fire such as
Sunshine Plaza, he would automatically get other units when he
would call for a second alarm. He said they would automatically
come in on the announcement that a second alarm was in progress
in this area.
C/W Kelch asked on a, second alarm fire if the entire
safety department is involved and if they had to have police
officers for traffic control. Mr. Simon replied that they have
never had any trouble along that line, as far as the Police
Department is concerned. C/W Kelch further questioned the Chief
on whether it brings other police departments in or other juris-
dictions and he replied no. C/W Kelch mentioned that we would
have to figure that if we were working out of a box arrangement
on a reciprocal basis, this would also require the additional
services of both safety departments involved and the Chief said
it really hasn't come up yet.
C/W Kelch said they are speaking specifi.cally today of personnel
in his department, and do they have to figure that these things
overlap and when we enter into something that is an agreement,
do they have to provide all facilities to follow through on it.
Chief Simon said that basically past performance has been that
they recall the police, and usually you end up with an adequate
number to establish fire lines, provide protection for property, etc.
-4- April 11, 1980
C/M Disraelly
4 firefighters would
want them as soon as
asked if it would be 6 months before these
come aboard and Mr. Gross answered they
they can get them.
C/M Disraelly asked if that meant that next year without
any changes of any other sort, the budget would go up $56,000,
and Mr. Gross answered, not really, because the Police Depart-
ment budget will come down. C/M Disraelly discussed that the _.
Fire Department budget will go up $56,000 and thenin the Police
Department there would be a determination as to whether they
need more men because of the growth of the city and the expan-
sion to the west again. Mr. Gross said that also they are
talking about more men in the Fire Department and C/M Disraelly
asked if that would be on top of these. Mr. Gross answered that
was correct and that would be what the rest of this meeting will
be about.
C/M Disraelly asked if just to do what we are doing now,
will it cost us $56,000 next year, plus or minus. The City
Manager said that was correct, but was not in addition to what
it would have cost us if we had hired the 5 men in the Police
Department. He further said there will be no additional cost
city wide next year for these 5 people that would not have been
there already in the Police Department. He said there were
originally 5 men in the Police Department and if we put them on
this year, we would have to pay them next year.
C/M Disraelly commented that we may need more policemen
next year and Mr. Gross concurred.
Mayor Falck asked if they hired them this year, would
they continue them next year and the City Manager said that is
correct.
Mayor Falck said he personn.ally has no objection to going
on the option that they are talking about with the transfer
where they are not going to spend any additional money. He
further said that he would be opposed and shares C/W Kelch's
feeling that he doesn't think that we ought to be terminating
this contract with North Andrews for those people who are east
of 441 until we have enough information to make us feel comfortable.
Mayor Falck then discussed the construction that would be
taking place on Commercial, Prospect and Dixie.
The City Manager asked that his recommendation on Page 3
be agendized for Monday so that it can be passed by the Council.
A discrepancy in the budget was discussed by C/W Kelch
and Mr. Gross and C/M Disraelly indicated that the City Manager
had informed them that they were below staff at the present time
because some senior man had left and they were hiring juniors at
a lower rate, but there was $3000 in excess funds in the salary
range at the present time and asked if that was correct and Mr.
Gross concurred.
C/W Kelch discussed that the people had expressed that
they want protection and need protection and went on to say that
if they are willing to settle for the Chief's absolute minimum
option, then she has to be reassured that they are really looking
at a safe procedure and that they are not jeopardizing any of
the things that the people are hoping for in taking this on.
The City Manager said that the Chief will have to answer
that, but he wanted to say that the second part of this meeting
will be on his office'sfurther recommendations to be included in
the budget next year.
Mr. Simon said he would start with Option 1 and thinks he
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April 11, 1980
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The City Manager mentioned that we don't have the same
type of reciprocity because of state laws with the Police
Department that we do with the Fire Departments and if we had
a problem, we would be calling in the Sheriff's Department
because they would have jurisdiction. He also said that
Lauderhill policemen would not have jurisdiction in the Tamarac
area, and he is just like any other citizen, and their liability
problems are very high, so we call our own men in the Police
Department first, and secondly we can call the Sheriff's Dept.
C/W Kelch asked if they would be called in first and
Mr. Gross said no, that our backup people would be called in
first.
C/M Disraelly brought up agreements between cities and
Mr. Gross said they are working on that right now and that Mr.
Birken just reviewed an agreement Monday or Tuesday of this week.
Mayor Falck asked how many people specifically are they
talking about in order to get the fire house opened now and
the Chief asked which option the Mayor was referring to. Mr.
Gross said that it was Option #3 which was recommended in his
report this morning.
C/M Disraelly discussed the City Manager's recommendation
which is employment of 4 public service fire people as of 5/1 and
the deletion of.the 4 of the 5 cross --trained officers from the
Police Department budget and transfer that budget to the Fire
Department; funds are taken from the Police Department and put
into the Fire Department.
Mayor Falck mentioned the figure of $27,180.00 and C/M
Disraelly said the Chief is talking about $28,000.00. Mr. Gross
stated that was to give it the protection that Mr. Simon feels
needs to be given in order to feel that the station can be run
adequately.
C/M Disraelly then stated that this will make it 4 and 3
a n d"when we made up the budget, it was 4 and 2.
C/W Kelch asked if there will be no additional outside
people employed and the City Manager replied that those are new
positions; they are new people. He said that the Police Depart-
ment had positions available and they are transferring those
positions to the Fire Department; they still have to go outside
to get the people.
C/W Kelch said she understands then that they are actually
new employees. Mayor Falck clarified by saying that instead of
for the Police, you're getting them for the Fire Department and
Mr. Gross stated that was correct.
C/W Kelch questioned recommendation B in Option 3, "hire
two fire fighters scheduled to be hired on June 1st on May lst,"
and asked if that is in addition to these other 4. Mr. Gross
said that was right.
C/M Disraelly asked, in other words, if they have to hire
4 people to get 1 man on shift. C/W Kelch said no, that she just
wanted it clearly understood that they were getting 2 men
besides these people. The Chief told the Council that they hired
2 yesterday, are hiring 4 more and are talking about 4 more.
Mr. Gross concurred with the Chief.
Mayor Falck asked if the total effect on the budget would
be nil and the City Manager said that is correct and actually
they will have some extra dollars left over in the Police Depart-
ment because the salaries for firemen alone is lesser than what
it would be for the policemen.
C/M Disraelly asked if they anticipate hiring any more
men and Mr. Gross answered that there would be one more person
for the balance of this budget year in the Police Department.
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can explain his feelings as he goes along. He said that Option
#1 would give them definite participation in mutual aid con-
tracts and he would never he short of manpower for that, at
least he didn't think he would. He went on to say that as far
as the ability to eliminate the North Andrews contract, that
would still be in effect by a no cost automatic aid agreement
with North Andrews, as that would still come in there from their
station on Powerline Road and the aerial use would always be
manned and we would start to have the potential of handling
two simultaneous fires, with this option of 10 men on duty at
all times. He continued on saying that it will also establish
a very good basis, ratio of .fire fighters per 1000 people to
go into all the future expansion of this city and hopefully he
would try to cut that ration down as the city got to around
60 or 70 thousand people, with cost effective saving manpower
methods and still give this degree of protection, which he
thinks is a pretty good degree of protection. He said all of
it involves a certain risk, as you couldn't put a fire truck
in front of every house, but he said that would definitely be
an acceptable risk.
Mr. Simon continued on, saying that Option 2 is similar to
where our limiting factor would be our reciprocal mutual aid
contract and we could get -in a position where we would be cur-
tailed at certain times, but not all the time. Then, he went
on to say, we would not have the chance to cover the city east
of 31st Avenue on the same basis as he said, as a no cost auto-
matic aid program would be, because our part of the reciprocity
would be to respond outside the city in Broward Central's area
to cover that, and we would not have the manpower to send a
relocated unit from this Station #1 to Station #2 to cover that
area.
Mayor Falck asked if Mr. Simon was on Option 2 and Mr.
Simon answered yes and that they are taking a little more of a
calculated degree of risk on the thing, but in his opinion,
would still be an acceptable degree of risk. He said we have
the same problem with the aerial ladder. He said they could go
.into a modification between Option 1 and 2, a 9 man crew,.and
maybe put one man on and it would be a slight disadvantage to
have one man drive the rig as versus two men driving it.
Mr. Simon said he thinks Option 3 is an acceptable
calculated degree of risk, and that the job could be done on
this basis, and that it is being based on very strick quali-
fications from the cross -trained police officer.
Mayor Falck asked that on Option 3, the area east of
441, do we still have in effect the agreement with the fire
operation at the Executive to back us up in support too. Mr.
Gross answered that this was signed about 2 years ago, and
that there is no ending date on it.
Mayor Falck indicated that there was a fire in his
particular section, and believes there have been 4 fires in the
Boulevard Section during the past 10 years, and in at least
two of those there were units from Executive over to his place
first. He said that during a very large fire, 3 units appeared
on the scene which didn't do a darn thing and then a little dinky
came up and they were the ones who went to work on it. He further
asked whether or not we still had that kind of relationship with
Executive as they were always willing to participate.
The Mayor indicated that in their plan, they are
going to put in additional units at Executive Airport because
of the industrial site just west of them that is now being built
and also because of the big industrial tract on the west side of
31st where the Lakes and the concrete company are.
The Chief explained that in one of Ft. Lauderdale's
assignment cards, they have a Tamarac unit responding on one,
which wouldn't be part of that mutual aid contract for pay and
that they definitely have a Tamarac unit card on that.
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April 11, 1980
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Mayor Falck mentioned that in'view of the comments made
by the Chief, it would seem to him that in order to get the
operation going, they should take Option 3 when it is called
up for consideration on Monday. He indicated that an awful
lot more consideration needs to be given to the 1980-81
budget, but he does not have that much concern based on the
chief's assurance that it was an acceptable alternative, and
he thinks that this is where we ought to start from a personal
observation.
Mr. Gross asked that his motion on Page 3 be agendized
for Monday for the Council's consideration, and suggested that
they go on to the next item.
C/W Kelch asked if there will be manpower in our station
over there and the City Manager replied that we are hoping to
have it by May 1st, but possibly not until May 15 and adver-
tisements are going in today.
C/W Kelch discussed that when this opens, are they
transferring 2 or 3 trained personnel and C/M Disraelly answered
that there will be 5 there. C/W Kelch indicated that she is
worried in case someone over there was sick and why are we being
so stingy about this thing. She then mentioned that we are
eliminating Bailey Road and wanted to know if that was figured
into the budget. Mr. Gross indicated that the second part of the
discussion will be on future needs and that the Chief feels Option
1 is needed, a 10 man complete crew on duty at all times, which
means you need 3 additional men on each shift, a minimum of 12
people and'C/M Disraelly corrected the City Manager, by saying,
a total of 15.
Mr. Simon indicated that he was figuring on Option 1 and
went through most of our cities in Florida and also went through.
professional magazines wherein they advertise a Chief's job.
Usually stated are the population, the budget and the number of
fire department employees and when they give them 3 figures, he
is able to obtain the ratio of fire fighters per thousand people
plus per capita costs, a simple one dividing our population into
the fire department budget. He stated that this is used univer-
sally. He had gone through 50 cities, but discussed just a few:
Largo, Florida 1.54 Firemen
Gainesville, Florida 1.6 Firemen
Dunedin, Florida 1.38 Firemen
He further stated that rather than go through the whole
thing, he could go to the national average which he made on Page
14 on the graph in the last page of the book or next to the last
page. He is giving us three bar graphs on the national average,
which is 1.81. to what he was looking for and it is actually a
little less than 1.26 per thousand people and our present is .71
thousand. With a ratio like that, next year's planning is done
for Us.
Mr. Simon went on to say that we can find the city increases
in population by the number of CO's issued for residential units
and we come up with a pretty reasonable figure of 2.2 people on it.
He said that could be the basis of not increasing taxes, because
we are going to get additional taxes from the people in there,
and it would still keep us low after reviewing the options.
Option 1, the most expensive, would be 1.23 fire fighters per
thousand which you don't have on that page. Option 2 would be
one firefighter per thousand and Option 3 would be .89 firefighter
per thousand and the per capita cost would range, at the present
time, $14.66, the lowest of all of these cities. He said the
most expensive under Option 1, would be $17.84 down to $15.43 for
Option 3. Mr. Simon said with the Option 1 recommended, this
would allow the Fire Department to go all the way up to full
development of the city, which he is figuring at $73,000 accord-
ing to the Land Use Plan.
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Mayor Falck said that actually you are not planning on
increasing the staff in Firehouse #2 because they are filled
up and it is not going to grow; where is it going to grow to,
as it is grown up already. The Mayor indicated that the
growth from here on through is out at Station #1, which was a
question to Mr. Simon.
Chief Simon discussed the fact that he was entertaining
the idea of what they call a mini --max concept and that would be
possibly be two units coming in, a min and a max and nothing
coming from Station #1, as Station #1 would more or less be
tied up with full development here.
C/M Disraelly questioned the actuarial experience which
should come into focus here as well as what happens up in
Dunedin and any other place. Chief Simon said he has it right
down here.
C/M Disraelly asked how many times have we been short of
people and equipment and since he is talking about a potential
of 2 or 3 fires at one time, what is our actuarial experience
in how many fires at any given moment. He mentioned that we
have a different type of city than some of these others are
as to type of construction and type of people who are living
here.
The City Manager stated that the Chief can give us those
figures, but not at the present time. They know how many times they
have to call people in to replace people who are out sick, etc.,
and they definitely know how many fires they have had where
there are two fire calls at the same time and C/M Disraelly
retorted that he was referring to that.
Mr. Gross said that one of the things the Chief was
worried about in his discussion with him, was the fact that
there has been a tremendous change in the type of construction
in the city; buildings on the east side are almost all concrete,
brick and stucco, buildings on the west side used to be that way,
but if one goes to the Woodmont area now, and see the newer
buildings now going up over here by Lennar and Heftler Homes and
observe that the second floors are now becoming wood structures --
there is a lot of extra wood, and therefore the chances of fires
are that much more involved type of fires since the concrete,
brick and stucco fire basically holds the fire within a room for
a longer period of time. He mentioned that this is one of the
reasons why he feels that at this point he is making a complete
change in technically what he thought was needed in the western
part of Tamarac.
C/M Disraelly asked that when Lennar comes in with 2 and
3 story buildings if they are going to be wood frame and Mr.
Gross answered that we don't know at this point, we only know
what is going up now. C/M Disraelly said let's find out
first and also find out what is happening before we say these
are going to be wood structures. He then said he is not fight-
ing this, but just wants the facts so that they don't say these
are going to be wood structure; we need 14 men, and then they
become concrete buildings, and we don't need the men.
Mr. Gross said what the Chief is asking for at this point,
is from what he sees is being built today.
C/M Disraelly indicated that they are talking in platitudes
and what we should net down to is not how many men they have
elsewhere, or what the percentage is, but what do we need. He
then stated that they have to look at dollars and he wants pro-
tection. When they use $108,000 to hire 16 men, they are talking
5 months, 12 months and that becomes $250,000.
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The Chief asked if they thought he would ever leave
them in a vulnerable position to be falsely accused of spend-
ing people's money, when he is giving it to them that even
at the highest option, they would still be lower than every-
thing they went into as far as other taxpayers. He said that
without mentioning the name of the city, almost a similar
population, a better geography, meaning that it is a rectangle
instead of the shape Tamarac is, with 3 times as many firemen,
more stations, evaluated by the same outside agency, they
come out with double his budget, but still come out with a
Class 5 city.
C/M Disraelly replied that they got rated class 5 with
this rating and that he has pretty good well -trained men, and
the Chief replied that he is getting the maximum out of what
their potential is.
C/M Disraelly said he still would like actuarial figures
and the Chief said this is his way of approaching it and he
is doing that right now,plus he is giving them the potential
if the ratio is kept per thousand. C/M Disraelly asked the
Chief if he wants these men right now without areas 5 and 6
being undeveloped and the Chief replied yes, because he is
talking percentage and if you go into ratio, it's a percentage.
The City Manager said the tough thing with a Fire
Department is to prove need because of the fact that the only
time a fireman is needed, is when a fire takes place.
C/M Disraelly said that is why he is trying to get back
to actuarial figures and Mayor Falck agreed-C/M Disraelly said we had
been fortunate since we have handled it with a 4 man station
minimum and have had as many as 9 men, 6 men, 7 men. He also
said that maybe 4 isn't enough, but whether we should go from
4 to 6 because we are going to build up to 80,000 in 3 years or
5 years from now, that has to be considered as well.
Mr. Gross said he doesn't believe, unless he is mistaken,
that when the Chief asked for additional men, he is not looking
for them to be the top of the department when we have 80,000
people.
C/M Disraelly asked if we need to go from 4 to 6 based
on our experience and that we've had no problem at this moment.
The Chief replied that we did and C/M Disraelly asked when.
The Chief stated that he thinks he has a little more rate
of injuries than he should have and C/M Disraelly said he hadn't
indicated that up to this point.
Chief Simon stated that what is in the back of his mind
and the Assistant Chief's mind, is that they go to a fire with
2 engines as was done the other night in Heathgate. The first
engine goes right in and used that so-called booster tank water
with line; the next one comes in and stretches a supply from
a hydrant. Now they have 2 engines tied up and then what are
they going to do for the next fire coming along. They must
stop what they are doing, get the fire under control, and
switch the lines from that first engine to the second engine
because the second engine came in, they are all stretched out
with the hose, and they are not serviceable to go to another.
The first one in has nothing but 3 connected hosesthat takes
maybe 10 minutes to put back and then in that interim period
they don't have anything to cover the city. They can't rely on
mutual aid, because it's a big time element to come in here.
C/M Disraelly asked the Chief how many times he has had
two fires in the last year and Chief Simon replied that he
didn't think it was required of him to give them that off the
top of his head and said he doesn't even have it in his 5 year
records. He said that he has had calls come in simultaneously
several times.
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C/M Disraelly stated that what he was trying to get at
is when the Chief says there could be a second fire, there
could be a third one too and we are not providing for that.
Chief Simon said he could remember twice the exact
houses and C/M Disraelly asked was it last year, with Chief
Simon responding with a yes.
C/M Zemel said his prime interest at this time is
really not how many fires we have had, for we have had
multiple fires at the same time, but could it happen and
when. From his point of view, the fire department must be
prepared for a multiple fire, which will happen one time,
and that one time may be where we have mortalities because
we couldn't service, so he is open to being very liberal as
to what they have to offer to the fire service.
C/W Kelch stated that the people want protection and
they are willing to pay for it, and this is no place to
economize even if they are playingtiddley:-winks 90% of the
time; when the emergency occurs,she wants to have sufficient
personnel and sufficient equipment and the proper location
of the equipment to handle it. She said that the people
that come into our city where either manufacturing is a
possibility in the area that we have set aside for that in
the land use plan, or commercial developments which we have
throughout the area, these people need protection, and it
concerns the life and safety of our people and those that
will be employed, and those who will be consumers in areas
that aren't even figured remotely into our population. C/W
Kelch said she thinks it would be a very bad policy to try
to economize in this branch and she would go for the maximum.
Chief Simon said he believes his first obligation is
a fire suppression system for the limited amount of fires
that occur and his next obligation is to provide the maximum
productivity while he is still covering this thing suppression
wise. He indicated that the maximum productivity according
to America Burning which was published in 1973, are
established in fire departments and every dollar that is
spent on suppression is not as good as the dollar spent on
fire prevention. They are getting to the state where they
have some type of adequate fire suppression system, but at the
same time, he would challenge any department in the United
States as to productivity of this Tamarac Fire Department.
He mentioned that they have come in with site plan
reviews, are making that bigger and bigger and are coming in
with recommendations which they had cause to hear which were
not adhered to. Chief Simon further stated that they are not
in the position where they have a building code to enforce.
He said that if there is a 200 pound building inspector, he
can't get up into a 30 inch roof attic space, but he has some
guys that do and they are telling us, and these are the things
that are going to be cash profit to a fire department. He
referred to the roof in Sabal Palms; how many people could get
up there to inspect whether it was afire hazard if it had
openings in it. In other words, these are the fire protection
features that were originally supposed to be built into the
building.
C/M Disraelly indicated that all he was interested in was
what we need or are we overexpanding based on 1985. He said
we don't have the population here yet that the Chief is talk-
ing about.
C/M Zemel asked the Chief if we do inspections and issue
permits for commercial enterprises that have inflammable
materials and the Chief answered in the affirmative.
C/M Zemel asked if we issue a license and collect license
fees and the Chief answered that the Fire Department doesn't,
but they are doing it in conjunction with our Certificate of
Occupancy and Occupational Licenses from the Building Department.
-11- April 11, 1980
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77
C/M Zemel asked the Chief if that was one time, when
they first go in and the Chief answered yes. C/M Zemel
then asked how about each succeeding year and the Chief
replied no, that they didn't have the mechanism, but that
actually our Fire Prevention Code that was adopted in 1975
calls for a permit and if we want to put a fee on it, it
would be up to the Council to establish what the fee basis
would be.
C/M Zemel further questioned the Chief as to whether
he has ever known any city that didn't have a license and
annual licensing and annual fee for commerical enterprises
that have inflammable materials, ie. places that use kerosene,
cleaning fluid, gasoline, etc. Chief Simon replied that
others do have a fee.
C/M Zemel asked that when the Chief goes for the
original inspection for the CO and sees that everything is
fine, and they provide for safety for inflammable materials,
is that the end of it, and then the place could become a real
fire trap and we wouldn't know the difference.
Chief Simon stated that we still inspect them annually;
every commercial and multiple dwelling is inspected once a
year, a minimum of once a year, unless it is a hazardous type
of building and then we go in more often.
C/M Zemel asked if he is powered to issue citations
and the Chief answered with a yes and that the Code of City
Ordinances,CHapter 10 adopts the A1A Code, stating further that
he has a ruling from the City Attorney stating how he would
issue a citation.
C/M Zemel asked how many citations have been issued
this past year and the Chief answered that there were none.
The City Manager said that warnings have been issued
and the Chief indicated that thousands have been issued. C/M
Disraelly asked if they then re -inspect and the Chief said
yes, about 10,000 since they have been there.
Mr. Milt Klika dicussed the disastrous fire at Woodmont
and he wondered if anything has been done since then where
the fire department at the site plan removal can insist on
sprinklers even though the provision of the state law, he
believes, is 20,000 square feet. Mr. Klika said Woodmont
built their place at 19,990 square feet just to get under the
requirement. He also asked if the City Council can apply
leverage in approving site plans on the recommendation of the
Fire Chief that sprinklers should be provided regardless of
the square footage.
Mr. Gross said that we do lnoxc7 that the Fire Chief is
recommending to the Building Department certain changes that
he would like to see within the code. Mr. Gross indicated
that in designing the new clubhouse at Woodmont, it will be
the same type of design, but they are designing sprinkler
system and further said that sometimes people have to learn
a lesson the hard way.
Mr. Klika talked about the trained people in Station
#2 and asked if they are going to be trained as far as medical,
since there are a lot more heart attacks than we have fires
and he wants to know if that station is going to provide that
sp-rvzee- te--the re-sidents-__.._
Chief Simon indicated that on each crew they are going
to try to have at least one EMT and went on to say that all
fire fighters are certified with an advanced first aid ticket;
that is part of their basic training, usually about half of
them with an EMT, which is 90 hours in Broward and they are
state certified.
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April 11, 1980
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Mr. Klika asked if the Holiday Inn, which is about
5 or 6 stories, is getting our protection because of our
location being so close or will we get something from the
County for protection. Mr. Gross replied that we have a
contract with Ft. Lauderdale and if they call us in, we will
be getting some money. He also said that North Lauderdale
also has a contract with them and if they call North Lauder-
dale, they will get money. He explained that we have a
contract that we signed approximately 2 years ago that was
reciprocal between the two cities.
Mr. Klika asked how about Woodland Meadows and those
other areas between Shaker Village and Rock Island Road and
the Chief replied that this was unincorporated county. Mr.
Klika then asked if we have an agreement as to if we will
get money from them. Ed Gross replied no, only reciprocal
agreements at the present time, although we are working on
agreements.
Mayor Falck recognized Mr. Carl Alper and Mr. Alper
discussed how much of a saving there has been to the citizens
of Tamarac in their fire insurance premiums by the upgrading
of the Building #1 and the creation of Station #2. Chief
Simon replied that it was more than his budget and Mr. Alper
said he thinks it is important to let the citizenry know.
Chief Simon discussed where the drawback is. He said
it's not too difficult on residential, but there is no way,
as each commercial building is rated or inspected individually
and there is just no way. He discussed the percentages,
remembering when it went down 39%, 20% and things like that.
He further said that we struck a figure one time of about
15,000 units and we had to put a hypothetical figure on the
building and its contents.
Carl Alper asked if we can come to a reasonable estimate
of what the savings has been by the upgrading and creation
and Chief Simon replied yes. Mr. Alper said it might be
appropriate to let the people of Tamarac know how much work
this Council has done. Mr. Gross said he thinks the Mayor
has done it and we had a couple of articles. He further said
that each time the rate was lowered, the Mayor was quoted on
it.
C/M Disraelly asked if the tax rate was $15.00. Mayor
Falck replied that he would think so, although he has heard
even a higher figure. He thinks one of the things our people
ought to do is to shop around a little bit on some of this
stuff, because he has heard that some of the carriers are not
recognizing the fact that we have had improvement in our class
from 8 to 5 . He said that if some company doesn't want to
recognize it, they have the phone and there are a lot of
places that can be reached. He further felt that if you can
save money, money ought to be saved.
Chief Simon thanked the council for the interest they
have shown and the courtesy extended to him.
Mayor Falck ADJOURNED THE MEETING.
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ATTEST:
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ASSISTANT CITY CLERK
This public document was promulgated at a cost of $104.06, or
4.16 per copy, to inform the general public and public officers
and employees about recent opinions and considerations by the
City Council of the City of Tamarac.
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