HomeMy WebLinkAbout1986-05-23 - City Commission Workshop Meeting Minutes0
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NOTICE OF CITY COUNCIL
WORKSHOP MEETING
TAMARAC, FLORIDA
May 13, 1986
Please be advised that there will be a City Council Workshop
Meeting on Friday, May 23, 1986 at 9:00 A.M. in the Council
Chambers of City Hall, 5811 NW 88th Avenue, Tamarac, Florida.
The purpose of this workshop meeting is to discuss the
contract with the Broward Sheriff's Office for municipal
police services.
9 The public is invited to attend.
CEB:da
r
Carol E. Barbuto
Assistant City Clerk
AN EQUAL OPPORTUNITY EMPLOYER
POLICY OF NONDISCRIMINATION ON THE BASIS OF HANDICAPPED STATUS
MAIL. REPLY TO.
P.O. BOX 25010
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1
CITY COUNCIL
WORKSHOP MEETING
FRIDAY, MAY 23, 1286
9:00 A.M.
ROLL CALL: PRESENT
C/M Gottesman
C/M Stelzer
C/W Massaro
V/M Stein
Mayor Hart
ALSO -PRESENT:
Larry Perretti, City Manager
Alan Ruf, Acting City Attorney
Frank Etheredge, Finance Director
Tracy Smith, Secretary
The following is a verbatim transcript as requested by
Councilwoman Helen Massaro,
Mayor, -Hart: Before we get down to the business at hand, I would
like to make a few comments. I said it's a workshop, so most of us
come in dressed like we're going to work. The Vice Mayor is
wearing a tie this morning, making us look bad, however.
V M tein: Excuse me, I took the jacket off.
Mayor Hart: We're going to do a lot of listening this morning
because as you know Council did not get this until about seven
minutes ago and we really haven't had time to study it, but we
could follow along as it is explained to us. Then if we have to
follow it with an additional workshop, then we'll so do. I'd like
to turn this meeting over, .. Oh first I would like to introduce
some of the people who have dignified us, if you want to call it,
with their presence from the Sheriff's Department. Colonel Werder
who is the Executive Assistant to whatever it is, to Sheriff
Navarro. Sam Price, who is the attorney for the Sheriff's
Department. Bob O'Neill, I think you all know Captain O'Neill and
Mike Woodruff whose compiled a lot of these figures. Unless I've
missed somebody from the Sheriff's office, my local people you all
know. Larry, are you going to make the initial presentation and
then we'll ask you.
Larry Perretti: Yes.
r
/ts
Page 1
Larry Pe,r,retti: Mr. Mayor and Council I just want to make an
opening statement before we get into the agreement for the a police
service with the BSO. I'd like to make it very clear to everyone
listening, I see there are a number of citizens, as well as the
president of the FOP Mike Mell, and other dignitaries out there and
I just want to make it clear to everyone that this is a first draft
only, that there is nothing to get upset about, pro or con BSO
pertaining to this. This is a draft that was drawn up by our City
Attorney and the Attorney for the BSO and so consequently we are
certainly open to any suggestions from the Council pertaining to
the revisiting of this draft, we feel that it is comprehensive. We
have looked at a number of other contracts that the BSO has with
other cities. We have snitched a little from them and added a
little bit and I think it is as comprehensive as we feel it can
possibly be on a first draft without really knowing your particular
feelings about manpower, the level of staffing, the police facility
and different equipment that we would have to that the BSO would
have to purchase. So I think I just wanted to make that clear to
everyone out in the audience that this is a first draft discussion,
there definitely will be a second draft workshop to review this
further. Our time table now is to have everything completed by the
end of July. By the last meeting in July of the Council we intend
to present all this to you for passage so that it can be on the
referendum in November. So I just wanted Mr. Mayor to use that as
an opening statement. At this particular time I'd like to turn it
over to the...
C/W Massaro: Ah before Mr. Mayor, before you go on with this, I'd
like to make a statement. I think that this is entirely wrong to
have this workshop this morning. In view of the fact that we
received this material just a few minutes ago we haven't had an
opportunity to read it, to absorb it, to try to determine whether
it's good, bad, or indifferent, or to study it in depth. This is a
very serious and very important subject and has a great deal to do
with the future of our City. I don't think that we should be
listening to anything on it. I think the first think we should do
is to give us time to absorb it, not an half hour, not a day, it
should be at least a week that we can too question anything we want
from other cities, or whatever we want to do, and then have a
workshop. I don't understand how something like this can be thrown
at us.
Mayor Hart; Councilwoman Massaro if I may say as I said before we
just received it. We have to study it and if necessary we'll call
it an initial workshop. I can't see where it would hurt that the
one's that drew this up explain to us what they've got in there
before we sit down and spend the time reading it ourselves, then we
will know what questions we want to ask the next time we get
together or write down any suggestions we may offer. Being that we
don't know anything about it, I think it's good to have the people
who drew it up explain to us what they wrote here, that's all the
purpose we can accomplish.
9YK Massaro: That's all well and good Mr. Mayor, but I did want to
register my protest on the record.
Larry P retti: Mr. Mayor at this time I'd like to turn it over to
Alan Ruf for some comments pertaining to the draft and then I think
that we should hear from Chief McIntosh pertaining to the important
subject of staffing.
/ts
Page 2
Alan Ruf: I would like to start by apologizing for the fact that
you did not receive this document. I was here yesterday and I
certainly expected that by two or two thirty yesterday afternoon
you each member of Council would have had this to look at during
the evening hours. Quite frankly I think there are some thresholds
of information that needs to be provided to you by our staff that
pretty much is outside of the contract itself. I've indicated to
you in my memo that I believe that though in order for us to move
forward with any certainty and with the BSO to be able to respond
with numbers, there are things that we have to look at such as
level of staff. There has been a suggestion for some time that we
needed to look at police staffing levels. The second thing that we
need to look at carefully, and we're not going to have any final
answers on this until late in the month of June, is the
consequences of a BSO takeover on the City's pension plan. The
pension expert from Tallahassee is schedule to be in Tamarac the
entire day of June 20th to answer any questions that the Tamarac
Officers might have, the trustees of the Tamarac Pension Plan might
have and any questions of course that the BSO staff might have. He
has scheduled his availability the entire day to meet individually
or in workshop sessions. As I understand it, his presentation will
be video taped either by our system or the Sheriff's system so that
those people that are working during that period of time will have
an opportunity to see it. Another element that is very important
that we need to be thinking about is the cost of the transference
of benefit hours that the officers have to the BSO, and the
possibility of a large expenditure to buy back from those Officers
accumulated vacation time, sick time and holiday time. I think
another item for us to begin thinking about is the police facility,
how the police facility will be financed and how the cost of the
police facility will be handled in this lease agreeement, in this
agreement with BSO. Probably not as important an item but an item
will ultimately need to be discussed, is how the BSO will fund the
equipment purchase from the City of Tamarac to the contract go
through, since the indication or the plan at this point is that if
the electors of the City of Tamarac were to approve a BSO
involvement in the police activities in the City of Tamarac the
operative date would be January 1, 1987. That is in the middle of
our budget year and it's in the middle of the County's budget year
so there are some things that we need to be talking about.
Obviously in order for the electorate to have a comparison of the
costs we're going to have either budget for the officers, for the
staffing that we hope to put in place January one, or at least know
what it would cost for us to handle that. I think that I'd be
perfectly willing at any time, either now or at the end of the
meeting, to quickly go through each article. I think the level of
staffing is probably the most important consideration and if that's
all we were to talk about, if that's all we were to get a consensus
about today, and we may not even reach a consensus, but if that's
all we were to talk about, I think we'd go a long way toward
helping your City staff and the BSO to make some kind of reasonable
presentation.
y/M Stein: I'm glad that Alan brought this up because from the very
day that the BSO came back this time, we've had this question. How
much is it going to cost? The question always went back, what do
you want. I have consistently said that at the moment am I not
looking for the savings I'm looking for the necessary men to be put
on the street which were not there during this term. If we had to
put additional men on the street, we have to pay for them
obviously. So first we have to decide how many men have to be on
the street and in the Police Department. When we get that set then
we can know how much it's going cost for the BSO as how much would
it cost us to do, otherwise you're to trying to compare apples and
oranges. If you compare what it costs today to run a Police
Department which is sixty six men and the proposed Police
Department with eighty six men, obviously you're not going to come
to any straight answer, you're always going to have an answer
that's in question.
its v
Page 3
y�M Stein: I agree with Alan, we have to at least, I don't think we
can come up with a definite answer, but at least narrow the
parameters as to how many men we we're talking about,'how many
officers we're talking about. How many Captains, how many
Lieutenants, because we have more officers than most cities per man
on the street. We still want to have that amount or do we want to
go back to what the average is with the rest of the cities. Those
are the things that we have to get over step one. Once we do that,
the size of the facility is probably the least important thing
because I think both our Police Department and the Sheriff have
come to, pretty close to a number within two hundred feet and I
- don't think two hundred square feet is a big factor here. I think
the key is how many men do we want and of course the second thing
which we can discuss, we can't do much until late in June when the
pension man comes out from Tallahassee it's important.
V M tein: Let me call attention to another thing that's here no
matter whether we go BSO or not. We do not show on our books a lot
of money that we owe. We owe a lot of money to people for vacation
time they haven't taken, sick leave, vacation time which has
accumulated which is a considerable sum of money. We have tried to
invest this right now for the future budget because otherwise this •
is a runaway situation which progressively grows and grows and
grows. We feel that no City can operate that way, that there has
to be a cut off as to liability of the City. Obviously when these
people get transferred over to BSO they're going to want to know
what happens to their vested interest of their vacation and their
sick leave. Those are things which have to be addressed in any
event, we have to know what's doing with that, you just can't sweep
that under the carpet because eventually one day the thing's going
to blow. I think that it's good that it's coming out one way or
the other now that these items are coming to our attention and
should be handled. We have to find out how how much it costs and
get the numbers, we don't even have the slightest idea what the
real numbers are as to what we owe these people. I think if we do
this we will get the numbers after this workshop. Those are the
things we'll have to know before we can move on. I really think
that this discussion here today is finally the first step in a
progressive educational situation before the electorate gets this.
There's no sense in just slapping a referendum out and having
emotions fight whether we want the BSO or our own Police
Department. I think it's more important to let the people know
what we're talking about. What are the problems, what are we going
to kill, what are we not going to kill and let them decide what
they want to do about this thing. I think and I think the time has
come to really put this thing on the table. What the real cost to
our Police Department is, how much would it cost to sever and
cancel the pension and cancel the overtime and the vacation and the
rest of the stuff that has accumulated and what the problem, the
problem of building a Police Station is the least problem, putting
the building up. We have the money we've gone to budget, if it's
the BSO we have it. If it's not the BSO then I don't know that we
have the money to build a new Police Station but that's not the
problem as this moment. The problem at this moment is what are we
going to do with all these little things that have been hanging for
years that are now coming because you know when you move from one
house to the another you find alot of things in the closets that
you forgot about and that's what was happening here. We now
realize that we have obligations which are on the books that we owe
people and we have not made any provisions actually to cure it. I
think we're going to have to do it. I know we're going to have to
do it before you make the transfer. Thank You.
Mayor Hart: Larry, can you carry on and then we'll ask our
questions after we've listened.
/ts J
Page 4
Larry „Pgrrett*: Yes. Mr. Mayo
just said on page six I just
says, the BSO agrees that
employment from the City of
hundred and forty hours of
vacation benefits, holiday tin
CZM Stelzer: Can I ask you a question?
LsUry P tti: Sure.
C/M Stelzer: What happens after we transfer the two hundred and
forty hours isn't the problem. We've go so many hours on the books
here we've already gotten the printouts a month or so ago which
showed us a horrendous amount of sick pay that's been accumulated.
That's the thing that we have to take care of that's what Syd's
talking about.
Larry F retti: Yes, I understand.
C/M Stelzer: Alright.
Tarry Perretti: That's why I wanted to show you the money figure as
to what we're talking about.
C W M ssa : Mr. Mayor.
Mayor„Hart: Let's take the first subject we've got there, the level
of staff.
C/W Hassa;go: Mr. Mayor if I may please, just as Councilman Stelzer
asked a question, I have a question. I heard the Vice Mayor say
that it will be a simple matter to get together with the Chief and
determine within a couple of hundred feet how large the police
facility should be and then you said also that if we were to build
the police, if the referendum was to fail as far as going with BSO,
that there wasn't enough money to build the Police Department, now
that's a terrible statement because the referendum was for City
Hall and Police Department. In fact it all started with the Police
Building, that was the first thing that was to be built here is a
Police Department and the City Hall got tied in with further
discussions later but the immediate need was the Police Department.
i
JJ
As
Page 5
CZW Mass-aro:_ Now if we . . . I would like an answer not necessarily
now but before we're through here, if we do go BSO in our City and
then decide we don't like the service, and want to go back to our
own facility and we don't build the City Hall that we were supposed
to build, then where are we in our City. What kind of a problem
have we created. Now please Mr. Mayor let me finish my questions
that are in my head.
Mayor Hart: Well I think we should hold questions until ...
C W ;gssaro: These are not things that are going to be answered in
here. These are not questions that are going to be answered in
here, I know they're not but these are questions that we better
keep in mind that there's got to be an answer to it and that we
have to know and I did have a further question but with the fact
that I was interrupted there I have forgotten it for the moment. I
do know we might if this isn't addressed properly. One of the
first things I want to know at some point in time not at this
moment but why a statement has been made that there isn't money
there now for a Police Department.
Mayor Mart: I don't think that's the question we're here for this
morning.
C/W Massaro: I think it's part of this package is all I'm saying.
Mayor Hart: No, I don't. I believe the question this morning is to
go over this preliminary draft of a proposed contract. After we
get a final draft of it we know what we're going to do then we can
give some thought to as to whether we will accept it, whether we're
in agreement with it or whether we don't even want to go BSO. But
I think the first thing is to get a preliminary draft drawn up so
we know what we're talking about before we decide what we're going
to do with it or don't. Meanwhile I think the purpose of this is
to put our input as much as possible into this preliminary draft,
what we're able to at the moment what we can't because we have to
study, we can submit after the holidays, we can submit it in
writing to the City Manager, we can submit it at our next workshop
that we may hold. I think the purpose is to go through this and I
think this is what we should do.
Larry Perrejtti: At this time Mr. Mayor I'd like to ask Chief
McIntosh to come forward and if you would all turn to page two this
is the page that we will be discussing at this particular time.
Ala.
Ruf: Paragraph
1.2 . . .
1.2 outlines
the staffing that the
Chief
has asked for
and I'm sure
that he'll be
able to explain each
one
of the items.
There's a
breakdown later
in the contract for
your
information as
to how
many hours this
totals because we're
going
to be into an
overtime
type situation
and that's provision
8.2,
8.3 and 8.4.
For the moment
I think we
should concentrate on
1.2.
Chief McIntosh: First of all let me say I don't know why you
didn't get the package last night, I understand that they were
dropped off at the Police reception desk some time yesterday
afternoon and they were not delivered. I don't know the answer why
I can only apologize because they didn't get there. I think even
the one evening was probably not enough time for you, but you would
have had an advantage you don't have right now. In lieu of service
what we've talked about from day one is the shortage of police
officers on the street.
r;
its
Page 6
11
Chief McIntosh: At the present time our staffing is on the midnight
shift we have an average of 6.8 officers scheduled on duty. On the
day shift we have an average of 6.8 officers scheduled. On the
evening shift, which is usually the most active, we have an average
of 9.5 officers assigned. Now those averages do not take into
consideration people on vacation, people out with injuries, people
who are sick, call in sick on a daily basis or out on a holiday,
personal leave or any other kind of leave.
Larry Perretti: Just to clarify, the 6.8 officers that you're
is. talking about is that just patrol officers or this just...
Chief McIntosh: That's just street patrol officers.
Larry Perretti: Street patrol officers okay I just want to make
that clear to them.
Chief McIntosh: Now, what we're asking for on the midnight shift is
a minimum of ten officers to be on duty at all times. We know that
we have eleven zones in the City one of those zones is sparsely
populated but I feel that we need to cover ten zones, particularly
on midnights. In addition to the ten patrol officers, we would
have one sargeant and one lieutenant at a time, assigned to that
shift.
Larry Perretti: What is your staffing presently of your sergeants
and lieutenants.
Chief McIntosh: That is the same staffing, one sergeant, one
lieutenant.
Larry Ferretti: Okay.
--- Chief McIntosh: The second shift which is the day shift we
presently again have six point eight average. I'm asking for a
minimum of nine on the average, and the reason I feel that nine
would be satisfactory is because we also have three Community
Service Aides assigned to the day shift and they handle a large
number of non --criminal type calls. Also on the day shift we need
two sergeants, one on the east side of the City, and one on the
west side of the City. At the present time we have two sergeants
and one lieutenant. On the third shift, the evening shift, at
present the average is nine point five and I'm asking for a minimum
of twelve police officers and two sergeants and one lieutenant
which is the same as we now have. We would have one lieutenant
assigned as a relief lieutenant to take over on the days off of the
other lieutenants. Do you want me to go through the whole personal
or do you want to stop at patrol right now.
C/M Stelzer: I have a question; Do you expect the patrolmen to
work fifty six hours a shift a week.
Chief McIntosh: No sir.
C/M StglZer: Then you need more than ten people or nine or twelve
won't you.
/ts
Page 7
Chief McIntosh: Of course.
V/M Stein: He's not saying the same men.
C/M Stelzer: No, I know, but how many men would you need.
M in: He'll give you a total at the end. He just telling you
how many are needed at what time.
C[M.Stelzer: Oh, alright.
y1M_Stein: I have to ask you a question Joe. Why is it necessary
to have ... I understand during the day you have two sargeants,
there's no lieutenant. Why is it necessary during the evening to
have two sergeants and a lieutenant.
Chief -McIntosh: Because of the span of control. Because of the
amount of activity. You have the east side of the City and the
West side of the City and you have a lieutenant who is actually in
charge of the department during the evening hours.
C W Massaro: Mr. Mayor may I request now so that it's clear that
this workshop be verbatim so that we would have this information
when we're going through this and studying it.
Chief ntos : To back a little, to the other comment you made
Vice Mayor you noticed there's no lieutenant on days but we do have
a lieutenant who will have a number of other duties in addition to
being responsible for the day shift patrol. He will handle the
budget responsibilities, property control evidence and a number of
other items, so he would be covering the both patrols as well.
Larry Perretti: Joe what is your breakdown of the CSAs on the other
shifts. You said there were three on the second shift; how many do
you have on third shift and first shift.
Q,ief McI,Btosh: Currently we have three Community Service Aides on
the day shift, we have three on the evening shift, we do not use
Community Service Aides on the midnight shift because the bulk of
the activity is criminal in nature. Right now we have one CSA
that's assigned to the property room, that would probably not be
necessary, but we also do have to cover the reception around the
clock. We may use one of those CSAs from time to time in the
reception area. We are short one CSA right now.
Mayor Hart: How many Community Aides do you have now.
ChIgf Mclntgsh: We have seven.
MayorHart: Seven and we are requesting eight?
Chigi McIntosh: We're budgeted for eight, but we have seven, we're
short one.
n
/ts
Page 8
M Hart: In other words your present budget is for eight, so
you're sticking to the same amount. Any other questions on the
initial patrol that we've discussed, if not we can go onto the next
section.
Shirley Bloomfield, resident: Can I have a point of information?
Mayor Hart: Yes, go ahead.
Shirley loomfield: When you mentioned your figures or what you
have upstairs right now you said that that means that I do not have
people to replace for sickness or accidents or something now you
are requesting more people from the BSO, do you want that to be the
final figure or are you also including... In other words you want
do you want all of these people to be working people at all times
that what you are requesting for.
Chief Mclnt_osh: I understand.
TeX Bloomfield: If I have one person working uh two people
working one is out I show two people, but in the evening or the
others that I'm asking of BSO I am asking for four. Now am I
asking for four to be constantly working. In other words always
having four on patrol.
Chief McIntosh: What I'm talking about here the numbers I gave are
the numbers I have working at all times.
Shirley Bloomfield: That's what I wanted to clarify.
Chief Mc1ntQssh: Now as C/M Stelzer asked earlier; How can a guy
work fifty six hours a week? He can't. That's why and when we
discussed it previously we were talking about a ratio of one point
seven percent. In other words the numbers that I'm talking about
here which would be ten, nine, and twelve, actually equals fifty
four police officers and that gives you the coverage for days off
and the occasional sick call and whatever we need so that we would
always have that number of people on duty in a patrol car in a
patrol zone.
Larry Pgrretti: Also there is a further back in the first draft
there is an pertaining to your desire as to whether you want
coverage or not from the BSO if an individual is absent or not.
If it is determined by this Council that they don't want to replace
an absent person then we get credit, one eighth credit for that
particular time if we don't replace it. If we put into the
contract that we want the full compliment at all times, so that if
one person is sick they will get a replacement coming in that would
be at the same rate with no rebate.
Mayor Hart: You have A.
/ts
Page 9
LarryP rrettx: I think A is handled far enough at this particular
Point. I would suggest you read on at your own leisure to look at
the rest of that. We just wanted to give you a comparison now
during this first draft of what is being requested and what we
actually have in our work complement right now. So Mr. Mayor I
would suggest that we get off of the level of staff right now until
a later date and during the interim time when we come up with some
figures we will be feeding them to you.
C M tte man: Mr. Mayor on part C there down at the bottom of the
page five deputies and one sargeant. These are in addition to your
fifty seven patrol officers that you stated? You say deputies; Do
you mean a certified patrol officer.
Chief McIntosh: That's right, the patrol officer here is a deputy
over there. These are the detectives.
C M ottes n: I just want to get it clarified.
V/M Stein: I think that C/M Stelzer is correct if not one hundred
percent but partially.
C M t lze : ninety five.
V/M tein: Because there are in the discussions that have been
Preliminary I have looked at the staffing of other cities as far as
officers, I'm not talking about .. we're not getting into that
discussion at all. I'm very happy to put those men on the street.
A question came up between the recommendation of the BSO and your
recommendation as to the amount of officers. Lauderhill which is a
comparable city to us has less officers on the upper echelon then
we do and I thought that something we would discuss, which we have
to discuss as to why it's necessary for us to more officers than
the another city. Are we unique in that way or is there a need for
them. I know that in your proposal you're looking for one less
Captain, I know that as a matter of fact I think one of those
cities doesn't even have a Captain. The Police Chief is the top
officer and then they lieutenants. So while I'm sympathetic whole-
heartedly to putting the men on the street I do not favor having,
and I'm not saying that's true, but I'd like to know if it's true a
top heavy officer situation. As long we're making a stream line
situation I'd like to do it and not carry over just because we have
it.
Chief M nos : Well that's one of the things we are doing as you
know we've already eliminated one captain which will automatically
be eliminated on October first BSO or no BSO. Under the BSO
concept we would then also have two less lieutenants. To go to
Section C on page two, what I'm talking about here is the five
detectives and one sergeant. They would be the detectives who
would handle the investigative services. They would work a five
day week we wouldn't need more than five. At the present time we
have five detectives and one lieutenant and that lieutenant would
be eliminated and we would also be eliminating the lieutenant we
currently have for training because training would be handled by
the Broward Sheriff's Office. So we're eliminating one Captain,
we're eliminating two lieutenants.
[I
/t s f'
Page 10
Mayor Hart: That's what I wanted to know on five you've answered it
and answered him. Because I'm trying to compare what you are
requesting against what we have in present. So you have five
deputies or five detectives right now and you're recommending one
sargeant whereas now we have one lieutenant.
Chief McIntosh: Correct. In fact what I'm saying here is that
what we won't have records anymore so I don't a sargeant in charge
of records. I'll put that sargeant in charge of detective and
eliminate the lieutenant.
Larry Perretti: Thank you Joe. I think item B Mayor is going to
have to be held in advance now since Marvin Clayton stated that he
would be here on June the twentieth. This is a big issue with the
FOP we have submitted approximately twenty questions to the to
Tallahassee to Marvin Clayton. He will be prepared and as stated
before by Alan we will videotape the procedures and the questions
and answer period once Marvin Clayton comes down, so this is going
to have to be held until for further discussion until June
twentieth.
Mayor Hart: Now under E which calls for one clerk typist, Monday
through Friday, assigned to Investigation Unit. What do we have
right now in the way of clerk typists.
Larry Perretti: We have one secretary in that position.
Mayor Hart: So we're sticking ... we're going to the same thing.
Larry Pe-rretti: They need somebody with stenography experience.
May.D2r._B.grt: Under F one sergeant, one youth counselor what do we
have running on that function.
Larry Perretti: Right now we have a corporal Joe?
Chief McIntosh: We have a corporal, a sergeant and a youth
counselor.
Mayor Hart: One corporal, one sergeant.
Larry Perretti: We have two corporals presently in the work
complement of the police force right now. However it has been
agreed upon a number of years ago that we would no longer appoint
people to the corporal ranks. So the two corporals that are there
are red circled they have a special rate and if they would retire
or resign we would not replace any corporals.
Mgvol Hart: So we're reducing one position there.
Larry Perretti: Yes.
1
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Page 11
Mayor Hart: We have now five, we're requesting five reception
ists.
Larry erretti: This is basically to cover one receptionist for
each of the three eight hour shifts in a given day plus extras for
the days off of these personnel.
Mayor Hart: How does that compare to what we've got now.
Chief I tos : Right now we have one receptionist in the day time
and the only time we have a receptionist in the evening is if
- somebody is on light duty due to an injury then we'll put them on
the reception desk. However, under the BSO concept we wouldn't
have the dispatchers here, we wouldn't have the records people here
and somebody has to be here for the people who come in, the
citizens come in to the police station. Somebody has to be in the
building, everbody else would be on the street.
Mayor Hart: What is the approximate number of people now whether
you call them receptionists, dispatchers or whatever. How many do
we have now.
Chief McIntosh: One receptionist right now.
MayorHart: What about dispatchers.
Chief McIntosh: Five dispatchers.
Mavgg Hart: So we have a total in other words of six and we'll
operate with five. Call them receptionists, call them dispatchers
whatever you want. Is that right because you now have five and
one.
Thief McIntosh: That's right.
Mayor Hart: Five and one which is six and we're requesting five on
this.
Chigf McIntosh: Which would be of course a different pay scale.
YZM Stein: Have you a computation or does the sheriff have a
computation, how many patrolmen, how many officers, how may aides,
how many receptionists, a total in each one so we can have a total
of that.
Chief McIntosh: A grand total of eighty five people.
V/M StPin: No no, how many of each.
Chief M I tos : Oh, how many of each.
[l
I
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Page 12
C/M Stelzer: Does that handwritten sheet you gave us mean anything.
YZM stein: No it's wrong, you've got too many lieutenants here.
What you have here, has anybody written down what it totals. In
other words how many patrolmen will we have including relief
etcetera, etcetera including relief that you've asked for.
Chief McIntosh: I have it. If you want I'll get it typed up for
you.
C/W Massaro: Mr. Mayor, I would like it typed up. I would like a
comparison sheet with what we've got in each category and what
you're asking for.
Chief McIntosh: One captain, four lieutenants, seven sergeants,
fifty nine police officers, one administrative secretary, one
clerk/steno, eight community service aides, and one youth
counselor.
C/W Massaro: Let me just get one simple question in there. That
covers a twenty four hour period of what we now have on duty. Is
that what you're saying Chief?
Chief McIntosh: Yes ma'am.
C/W .M 9saro: Thank you.
Chief MOIoQsh: Receptionists - five. They were not on that
original list.
V/M „ ,Stein: That makes eighty eight all together. Joe is that
eighty eight, eighty eight all together.
Chief McIntosh: Eighty.
V/M Stein: I get eighty eight. That's right. That's what you
want.
CA Massaro: No, he said that's what we have now.
V/M Stein: No, you know we have more than one captain now.
CZW Massaro: I'm not supposed to figure that out. I just asked
him if that was what he now had covering a twenty four hour period.
Alright.
V/M Stein: This is what you want is eighty eight men.
ghigf M I tos : What we now have is ninety nine.
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Page 13
C/W Massaro: We now have ninety nine.
V/M Stein: Could we get the same run down as what you've given us.
C/M_St!9171er: It'll take him a minute to read it off.
Chief McIntosh: One chief, two captains, six lieutenants, seven
sergeants, fifty one police officers, one administrative secretary,
five dispatchers, seven records' clerks, one clerk/steno, one I.D.
Technician, eight school crossing guards, eight CSAs, and one youth
counselor.
V/ Stein: Who's going to take care of the crossing guards.
Chief McIntosh: We'll they'll have to be transferred to another
department in the City.
V/M Stein: What you're saying is ninety six whether you put them in
Police Department or if you put them in Parks Department I don't
care but then we still have payroll. The only difference is there
not part of the contract we're going to pay for.
Chief McIntosh: We also hope that the new school crossing guard
program would pay for this.
V/M Stein: I know that, but they pay either way.
Tape C/M_Stelzer: In making a comparison of dollars, we've got eight
2 crossing guards on our payroll now.
V/M Stein: That's what I'm saying.
M er: Alright you've got to remember that.
Maygj H4rt: That completes question number one right. Question
A, level of staff.
Chief McIntosh: Yes sir.
Mayor Hart: Let's go into B, the consequences of a BSO takeover
on the City's pension plan. I guess we can't do that.
Larry Perretti: That's the one I'm requesting we wait until after
June twentieth.
Mayor Hart: Alright C ...
Alan Ruf: May I just interrupt for a second. Would it be
helpful, maybe it's not necessary, but would it be helpful for
either the Chief or Judy to talk about the concerns that there
are at the present time.
f]
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Page 14
C/W Massaro: Concerns of what? I'd like to hear what he said.
Can I hear what Mr. Ruf said before, just repeat it please.
Alan. Ruf: All I said was apparently it's very important to some
of the senior officers in terms of time served here at Tamarac
how they are going to be affected by this pension. Obviously the
new officers or an officer with a year or two, there's no
problem. They can easily transfer into the state pension plan
and Joe has indicated to me from the very earliest of
conversations that how the pension is going to be handled is very
important to his people. I don't have any answers. I don't have
any answers at all and that's why the man is coming from
Tallahasee. I just wondered if it would be helpful to frame some
of the questions that are existing either by way of the trustees
of the pension plan saying what's going to happen when all this
money comes out our pension plan or any questions that Joe might
have. I don't know if you want to ...
C/W Massaro: Of course we want to know that isn't that going to
be covered before we close this workshop then.
V M tein: Nobody has any answers.
C/W Massaro: I know but I want to know what the questions are
that have been brought up.
V/M Stein: Helen may want to sit here and she can sit here. I
don't want to sit here for academic reasons. If the expert is
coming down from Tallahasee and spending an entire day on this
one item. I don't know if we' know what we're answering. None of
us really know the answers. If we knew the answers, we wouldn't
ask this guy to come down from Tallahassee. I think that since
we do have this thing for just a short time why don't we go to
the things that we can answer or that we have some input. We
don't have any input on the pension because we're not the pension
experts. When the pension expert comes down as you heard, every
member of the Police Department will either have a chance to be
here or see it on videotape and then if there are any questions,
we can address them at that time. I'm saying we shouldn't
address them. As a matter of fact I said before when I started,
I think that's the most important item here. Everything else we
can get over. I don't know how we get over the pension plan
situation, but I don't think we should sit here and deliberate
and have speeches here for an hour when nobody knows the answer.
Whatever you're going to ask them they're going to say they don't
know. If anyone thinks they're an expert and wants to get up,
it's okay with me. Otherwise I'd like to move past B as
suggested by the City Manager, and go to C.
C/W Massaro: Mr. Mayor, I would like to go on record. On this
very subject it's easy for someone who has sat in on negotiations
and discussed these things and knows what questions have been
brought up, it's very simple for them to sit here and say
something like this. I as one who have not been privy to the
discussions that have been held would like now Mr. Ruf, I don't
want to use any of your time this morning. I'd like Mr. Ruf to
give us a memo on the questions that have been raised during
discussions whether it was by the Chief or whether it was by the
men or whether is was by the City as to the Pension Fund. I
would like a memorandum on that.
/ts
Page 15
Larry Perretti: We have those questions that were sent to Mr.
Clayton and we'll send you a copy of the questions.
C W Massaro: . If they're all the questions that the City Attorney,
our acting City Attorney has eluded to, that's fine. If he has
more questions, I want to know what they are.
Larry P etti: Just one other comment on that. We would also
appreciate whether it be from the Council or any other staff
people or again I had mentioned this to the POP before, that if
there are additional questions, other than these we would
appreciate knowing about them as quickly as possible so we can
send them up to Martin Clayton, so he that he can come back with
the answers on June twentieth for those as well, rather than
handing him the questions on June twentieth and him saying maybe
he doesn't know the answer, he's going to have to get back to us.
CIM Stelzer: Why not distribute whatever questions the attorney
has, give us all on Council copies of the questions and we'll add
on our own. I have a lot of questions I want to ask.
C/W Massaro: That's all I'm saying.
Mayor„ffiart: Larry you're going to give us a report by Tuesday on
where we stand on amount of hours owed and sick leave and so
forth and so on. Can we get a report on what the investment of
the police officers are in the pension fund, so when we look at
we've got the whole picture in front of us and when we discuss
the pension fund we'll have all the figures of what we're talking
about. Let's go into discussion on police facility. I think
that hard's to say until we decide which way we're going.
Larry Perretti: I think that's strictly a Council decision, at
the particular time. I think that you're going to have to right
at this moment . . . it's going to be one of those open items
until the referendum is passed, you're not going to be able to
make a decision I'm saying.
V/M SS in: Well Mr. Mayor, Helen asked the question before and I
waited for this section. It is not an open item for this
contract. It's obvious if the referendum falls then the contract
falls and you throw it all away. It is a definite item for this
contract. How you're going to do it is based upon an affirmative
vote. If there's not an affirmative vote then this thing that
we're doing here today goes away and then we have our own problem
is what we do with the City Hall, I mean the Police Department.
As far this contract is concerned it's very definite we don't
have to wait for anything. We have to wait. Do we go BSO or we
don't go BSO. If we go you're going to have a definite amount
here. We have a definite amount of square footage requested and
as I said it's pretty close when you get down to a couple of
hundred feet as to what you want one way or the other. The
question that Helen asked, I'll answer now. Is that forseeing
the possibility that after a year or whatever time we might not
be happy with the BSO we of course are going to design into this
police station an expansion factor. Otherwise we would be silly
to put up a facility that we couldn't expand. We are going to
definitely put in an expansion factor possible expansion almost
double the size that we're going to build if we go with the BSO.
ff:
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Page 16
r__j
1
V/M ein: I think that's our answer. The other thing Helen made
... you have to understand I said, and I'm not the Finance
Director nor am I God, I said I do not think that the available
funds are sufficient if we have to build a full police complex.
It's not such a great surprise to Councilwoman Massaro because
she knew that before. We had an issue with the Police Chief as
to nine hundred thousand dollars in communications and the Police
Chief opted to build the facility and not to open a
communications depending upon the Sheriff's Office, that was over
a year ago when we had to decide what to do because we didn't
have enough funds to build a complete facility. This really has
nothing to do with the contract that's in front of us. I'm just
stating facts. The total amount of the bond issue, in my opinion
would not be sufficient to build a City Hall and a complete
Police Facility. Yes, we can put the building up but we could
not put the communications etcetera in there that are required of
a present day complete facility that's all I said. That's still
my opinion, however it really has absolutely nothing to do with
this contract that's in front of us. It's just a comment that I
made.
Let me say this, the difference in dollars estimated by
architectural amounts, which may or may not be valid, is BSO
facilities is somewhere about six hundred and fifty thousand
dollars being eight thousand square feet. our police facility
that we are going to build is in the neighborhood of two and a
half million dollars and that's the numbers that are probably
still valid. They can't be changed unless you decide to change
any construction. We're figuring about eighty dollars a square
foot and we're basing it on the police facility's square footage
and even those people who are screaming about the size of the
City Hall, came to the conclusion that if we made the police
facility slightly less in footage we would not be saving
anything. The amount for redoing it etcetera, would cost us more
-- than we would save and so that figure still stands as a figure
and that's the difference between six hundred and fifty thousand,
seven hundred thousand and two and a half million dollars. Those
are the figures of putting up the police facility ourself for a
full police department as opposed to BSO. Those are based on
square footage, not on any political situation or any thing else.
Those are footage which have been given to us by the architect.
Alan Ruf: Syd you hit a responsive chord in my head when you said
that this is an item for this contract. This contract at the
moment, the first draft, says that we will agree for police
services through FY 86 - 87 with a one year option through FY 87
-88. I don't think any of us suspect that we'll be anywhere but
where we are through FY 88. The whole exercise about talking
about eight thousand and how we're going to finance it is
probably isn't an item for this contract because this particular
contract, in it's present form, only speaks through FY 87 - 88
and I don't think we're going to be anywhere but where we are.
It may very well be for the purposes of this contract, for the
purposes of the referendum in the fall the question of where the
ultimate police facility where be located and what it costs might
be either to the citizens or the sheriff is another item in this
contract. As far what this is going to cost through FY 88, we're
going to be where we are and I don't think there's any question
about it and those numbers ought to be pretty easy to plug into
this contract.
May4l-Hart: The only thing I think we should consider in drawing
this up, as I recall when Sheriff Navarro gave us his original
presentation was that the BSO would pay rent for the facilities
they would use. I think there's a figure of forty one thousand.
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Page 17
Alan „$uf: It will be a credit against the monthly cost and there
may be other credits such as some kind of a credit for the
equipment that we're transferring because it comes up in the
middle of a fiscal year and I don't think the Sherrif's going to
budget for that purchase.
V/M Stein: Well Alan also just in consideration of what you said
while we were talking about forty one thousand in rent, the
consideration was that they would pay their own utility bill and
telephone bill. I don't know that it's feasible if they stay in
this place to do that we may have to adjust that too. Those are
only numbers. What I'm trying to say is if we decide to do it,
they're only numbers that we're talking about. Whatever the
electricity costs or what ever the air conditioning costs. They
are numbers that can be determined, they are not up in the air
and they're not fictitious. We don't have to sit around and kick
them around. They know that they have to pay for the use of the
facility, the space, their own utilities and of course in the new
facility they'll have their own telephone system, whether they
use our telephone system here, or not that's for them to decide.
Those are washdats as you said, we realize if they add that, they
add to our service contract and take it back. So what we're
really is ... If we charge them fifty thousand a year they
calculate that —h their contract to us, so we're taking out of
one pocket and putting it in the other pocket. The more rent we
charge the Sheriff the more he charges back on his contract to
us. I think it', just and academic situation.
C/M ,Steizgr: There's no provision in this budget comparison that
we have that they are charging us for rent. They are crediting
us for rent. I don't see any provision in here that they're
charging us for rent. It's not going to be a washout.
V/M Stein: No but ...
C/M StQ—lzer: It's not going to be a washout. It may be a washout
as far as our cost is concerned but it's not a wash out as far as
V/M Stein: I'm assuming with all due deferenceto the Sheriff that
he calculated the rent here as far as his overhead to service us.
C/M Stelzer: It's not in here.
V/M Stein: Well, if he's going to pay us forty one thousand
dollars he's got to get is some place, doesn't he. Nobody'L
giving us a present of forty one thousand dollars.
C/M Stelzer: Syd if you look at his projection he's only got
salaries, dnd he has specific items that he's charged you and
nowhere in these charges are rent charges. He's giving us credit
for ...
C/M Gottgsman: Mr. Mayor, a question, a point of information. At
the moment, the question of a police station is being held back
until a referendum. It occurs to me that also at the moment we
don't know where the police station will be, whether it will be
still in this building, which with it's limited space or do we
build what Syd Stein said, a miniature police station which can
be expanded later.
/t s
Page 18
C/M Gottesman; My question is the police station right now for
the next year or tw(. is still going to be a very inadequate space
thing because we have that Is that true, is that what we're
saying.
V/M stein: I don'4 know how inadequate it is because some of the
services... You can't compare the police department as it is now
and as it will be under BSO. Some of the departments are going
to be moved out of here, which will give them much more space.
C/M Gottesman: When you say some departments will be moved, when
we go with BSO?
V/M Stgin: Of course.
C/M Gottesman: I'm saying what happens if we don't get to that
point. We're talking a whole year in advance.
V/M Stein: Then we'll stay here, there's nothing you can do.
C/M Ggtt gMan: That's what I want to determine.
I mean if we stay with our own Police Department,
Q1M Gottesm4n,: We'll still be stuck with the small space.
C/M Stelzer: What are you going to do. Then you build a new
police department.
C/M Gottesman: No, then we have to go and address ourselves and a
question of a Police Station .... I said it earlier. I just want
to know where we stand.
C./W Massaro: Mr. Mayor, i think there's still an important
question._ I think you're absolutely right'Arthur that this has to
be considered because all I keep hearing is that the numbers have
been changed from what the original referendum was on how much
money was supposed to be for a City Hall and how much was to be
for a police facility. Now those numbers have got to be looked
back at because that's what the people voted for, that's what was
the intention.
Hart;Baygg That's not the purpose of this meeting and I don't
believe, I don't want to go into that now because it's a separate
subject but, but I don't believe that referendum said so much for
a police station and so much for ...
C/W Massaro: No but our figures did. We did quote those figures
on the record.
Mayes $grt: The only one gdestion I want to ask is this figure of
forty one thousand that is in there for rent, where there's a
credit or they're going to pay it, is that based on the present
facilities or is it in anticipation of a new one being built.
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Page 19
C/W Massaro: Do we have eighty two hundred? Do we have it here?
M.aygr Hart: Have you any idea Joe of what are the square footage
of your present facilities are in total.
Chipf s : Yes. With what we have in here and the trailer
the total is five thousand.
s ro: Well Ur. Mayor, 1 did z4t;4-:64,6l have the floor. This
a very important question becau::a Sheriff Pavarro did state when
he was here that if this space i:ti't the amount they require,
that they've got to go out and rent a place and we have to pay
for it. Is that taken into consideration.
CZM StelzeKa What they';.e asking is that we build an eight
thousand square foot building for them and they will pay us rent
for that eight thousand square feet. Isn't that what the story
is?
V/M Stein: That's exactly right. That's where the number came
from.
CZM gtgtjQlZer: That's were the forty one thousand comes from.
V/M Stem: I said that we were two hundred foot apart. We were
talking eight thousand and we asked for eighty two hundred. I
mentioned that I can come up with a number but that's way I said
we're pretty close. That's where the numbe. came from.
C/W Massaro: But we don't know what you're talking about.
y/M Stein: However, for one year we can't move. What they would
be paying us is oiMher staying here and pay us five dollars for
five thousand feet alright, or go some place else and not pay us
anything and have their own quarters. That's the two optior.s you
have. If you don't want them here and the space is needed they
will move out and get their own quarters, you won't get a credit
and you won't get a charge.
CZW Massaro; Okay but those things are not in here.
V/M Stein: Why that's why we're discussing it here today, Helen,
okay that's what the workshop is all about.
C/W Massaro: But some of these things we have to pull as if it's
sacreligious.
Mayor F t: I would like to complete this. I don't want to go
into at� pro or con BSO campaign at the present time. Let's go
into finishing what we started out to do, to find out what is
written here and questions Alan Ruf put down here, that we should
answer. ; think we can go next to the question a, which is under
equipment purchase by BSO, article twenty.
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Page 20
Larry Ferretti_ The BSO and the committee from the City had
agreed upon an appraiser to look at the equipment that the City
had. The appraiser was hired, the apprai-er submitted their
report, I. sub mitted it to the BSO,, at this particular moment I
have not heard personally from the BSO as to their interest,
although we both agreed we would both accept the appraisers
calculations as to the "V amount of equipment that they would be
interested in. Colonel Werter or Mike I don't whether you're
prepared to come up forward with that at this particular point.
If you are, I'd appreciate it if you would. If not, if we could
have your comments about the appraisal at a later date.
Colonel Werter: The appraisal that we received is reasonably hot
off the press, as you might imagine as a lot of the things we're
talking about this morning. We have not really had an
opportunity to complete this adjusted . . and the other thing
we have to do quite honestly is project any equipment and it's
condition as of January 1, 1907 date in terms of it's value,
particularly with regard to cars and things like that, in terms
of the miles accrued on the car at the present rate and how many
miles of service of the life will be left. We will be prepared
to address that at a future date.
Mayor Hart:.; think that Council has already to the purchase of
some new equipment which would have to be adjusted too, at that
time.
golonel Werter: Yes sir.
Mslygr ji4rt: and equipment purchase
appraisal
9ZW Massaro: I'd like to ask;
consideration when the appraisal was
January. This appraisal was just made.
since the date of that
wasn't that taken into
made the condition as of
Larry Ferretti: Well we had to come up with an up to date figure
because we never had anything. Ail we had is a fixed value asset
when it was at purchase price and it was in the neighborhood of
like six million and something.
91ki _Massaro: Larry this appraisal was made by a bonafide
appraiser. When was this done?
Larry Perretti: What was the date on that?
C/N Stelzer: A couple of weeks ago.
QZW o: Alright, now the statement was just made by the
gentleman that they have to look at what the value was as of
January first, see what the mileage was. Isn't that what the
appraiser did. Are you �w,king about what it will be next
January? Oh, alright; I beg your pardon.
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Page 21
Q1.0nel Wigr_tcLr: The p;9int being, this is as current as you can
get. I think -p* -all have a basis from which to make some very
intelligent decisions about whether or not we will purchase the
equipment. I'm certainly mindfull of the fact that much of the
equipment perhaps with the exception of the automobiles, will
neither go up very much or down very much from the value that's
there now.
Mayor Hart: So we're agreed that that will be adjusted after the
decision is made to go with BSO :n the takeover. Just as to it's
depreciated value at the end of this year and to add to that any
new equipment that has been purchased from the City since the day
of that ...
CQ"lQnel Werter: Yes sir, and the prime ingredient that we will be
looking at honestly is service life. WJ2at will be the service
life of that piece of equipment.
C/M GottW-esman: Colonel, Mr. Mayor has there been any agreement
that"once you arrive at this figure that the Mayor just spoke of
that you're going to buy this, or it,'s still open yip in the air.
Colonel ter: I .think it is clear, and I think it was raised
earlier that there was some feeling that the equipment, that the
City would not receive it's fair share of value of the equipment.
I think the purpose of the appraisal..
ottsnan: What do you mean by that?
Cplane_1_kerter- I said earlier, w4pn these discussions were going
on much earlier. That there was some feeling that the City might
not receive it's fair share of the value of the property now in
the hands of the Pplfce Department. That was the purpose for the
appraisal to determine what that value is. I would be less than
candid with you if I said that all of this equipment will not be
purchased by BSO. I think there is a portion of this equipment
that is either in disrepair, or poor serviceable condition, we
will not purchase it. What I'm also saying, we have an appraisal
from your people, from Mr. Sugarman's organization that the
chances are the marketable value is worth that amount to someone,
if not the Broward's Sheriff's Office, ,which would indeed give
the City a return for it.
M ttes an: What you're saying then if you don't buy this
police equipment there are other agencies which would purchase
used police equipment.
_Q1,QHel WOgter: That I can.'t answer you but your appraiser I
think takes that into consideration when he gives a value to it.
LOrry Per etti: When I spoke..cu Mr. Sugarman that's exactly what
he relayed to me as well that if they don't take it, that he
would then, he's a professional certified appraiser and
auctioneer, that that's what they would do and if the City so
desired they would auction off any of the excess equipment that
the BSO didn't purchase to get the City back some additional
money.
1
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Page 22
C/M QZ;gman: T40's what I'm interested in, getting back as
much money as we can get back obviously. So I think BSO or
otherwise we have a certain amount of equipment, how much is it
worth to dispose 'of it.
C.Qlgnel Werter: I think from the purpose of the City's point of
v$jow, -the value of the property whether by the Broward Sheriff's
Office or some outside enterprise is money that will be coming
back to the City in way or another.
sLM Stelzgr: I was under the impression that if we had an
appraisal of all of the equipment that is being used by the
Police Department that the BSO is going to take it over at the
appraised value all of it. why should we have to run around
peddling what's left.
VZM Stein: That's not what the contract says.
CZN Stelzer: That's what the original contract said.
y1M, ,atgin: No it never said that. It said that the BSO shall
eithei'take-it or you have the right to sell it. They have first
refusal, that's what they're saying.
CC/gr: WI don't remember any of that.
YZM n: That was the original, it's never changed.
C/M Stelzer: I don't remember any of that.
V/M St in-: Am I right Larry, that things never changed.
Lagry Ferretti: No, I think that's the only way it can actually
pork because in some areas the BSO has enough equipment to
satisfy our needs without even taking some of ours, at the
present time.
Asa Ruf: On that issue, I might just say however, that we are
either going to plug in a number or we're not going to plug in a
number for the purposes of the referendum. I think it' s got to
be a number that is set as of the date of this contract. You may
very well have to project what it's value is going to be January
one, but I think there has to be a number or there's not going to
be any number in this agreement. So to the extent that we're
going to have a contract and to the extent that we're about
art,icl_e 20.1. I think for the purposes of the referendum, there
has to be a number, or we have to take the equipment out and say
that's oranges, that's not apples. I think that's another issue
that has been raised through this workshop. I chink there's
several things that've been raised through this workshop that are
very helpful to me in negotiating this contract or at least
knowing what needs to be in.
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Wrrv-Perretti: Again I just would like to emphasize to the BSO
that these figures have to be plugged in by the last Council
meeting in 'July in order for us to prepare our referendum and
also to submit anything to the citizenry before the actual
election because the Council will be adjourned in the month of
August, ao that's or basic target date for plugging in figures
into this particular contract. We'll schedule it for
approximately around the fourth Wednesday in July, however, the
Mayor,at his discretion can call a special Council Mooing, so
you can figure on the fourth Wednesday in July we need these
figures plugged in.
vpr, Hart: Are there any further questions? Aion thank you for
everything, 1 think we covered
Alan Ruf: I think that you've covered it and -2 appreciate the
time that you've taken to do it.
Mayor Hart: Ar. A1pe r
Carl Alper resa,dent: Thank you Mr. Mayor since this is a
workshop I thought we would have an opportunity for the public to
make some contribution. As I stand here, I'm not for or against
the Sheriff's office, -I want that understood. What I am saying
are thoughts which occur to me which I think may be pertinent in
the long run to the negotiations, which I think as far as I've
heard are not really finalized. Th.e Sheriff's Office is a
Broward County -institution the contract we're about to make is I
ufiderstood to run to fiscal year fifty eight.
Kgyor Hart: Fifty eight?
Mr. -Alper: Eighty eight, pardon me, I'm thirty years behind.
What I'm trying to say is" maybe a temporary contract but from my
understanding of how cities and other institutions work,
temporary becomes permanent. I just asked a lieutenant whether
in any City _of Broward County the Sheriff's office has been put
out and he tells me that they've continued all along, wixerevec
they've made a contract apparently the City would be content with
there work, so in that sense, temporary becomes permanent. It
does in many other temporary agreements. We will have, so we'll
have in here a really permanent county department. The
referendum as I understand it will not mandate that we builda
building but we'll give authority to this Council if it so
determines to build that.
y/M Stein: We have the authority.
CZM Stelzer: We have the authority to build the building right
now.
Mr. Alper: That's fine but you're not mandated to build a police
facility.
C/M Stelzer: We are.
Mr. -Alder: We are mandated, we must bui..ld it.
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Page 24
e telzgr: We put it on our referendum-.
Mr. Llpe_r_: I know that but that does that referendum say you've
got to. Now I'm saying it as follows. The Sheriff necessarily
has to move his men about. -If something occurs in a neighboring
county, where tbz aheriff has the right to go in, he'll move
people there: I_� more people are needed temporarily in Tamarac,
he'll move peS>ple here. So really what we're doing is becoming
part of a county institution, and that's not objectionable. The
thought,that I want to present to you is as follows. We have in
Tamarac_, a fine 11brary it serves mostly the people of Tamarac
but it's'a Broward County institution that's paid for, the books
are supplied by them, the personnel is paid for them, the rent is
paid for them. What I'm trying to say is it makes sense to me
that since in the long run this Broward County wfll ae here and
we'll be a County institution and'si.nce the negotiations are not
finalized, and I Dove a feeling the Sheriff is dying to come in
here, and we want tlha Sheriff's office if we think he can serve
the C1?:y at a greater ability but less expense or even the same
expense. We ought to negotiate with the County or with the
Sheriff's office that the idea that the Sheriff would draw that,
that the county build it's facility and pays for it's facility
and maintains it's facility just as the library as maintained.
Now I'm not convinced that's it's already been determined that
we've got to build it and he's got to pay rent or otherwise. I'd
like you to consider, and only consider negotiations with the
appropriate authorities that they, the County build the
institutjors_. . Wlhopk You.
C/M SJtgJy,gr: We don't have to build it. I they want to build it
themselves, they build it themselves.
�4�sg4rq: You have to supply it
ar._Alper: If they build it themselves, I'll say hurray for the
Sheriff's office.
don't know why C/W Massaro keepo on saying, :f
yo-O do not want to have a station here then Sher.Ltr will takrm
care of quartering his men. We do not have to supply it it'd raot
part of the contract. If we want them here rather than a mile
down or someplace than we put it here for our convenience because
wel-d like to have them in the City. They can be any place, as
you said they're a County organization. It is not our obligation
to quarter them, it's a cooperative situation. We Bay we want
them in this location and we'll rent you the apace. As -a matter
of fact in L#ixderhill you have a situation in reverse of what you
just said. The County rents space fr_o& the Sheriff, now if you
want to believe that one because the courts in their building
that they rent. I don't know anything about the County's
building, anything for the Sheriff, 1 don't know that they have
so far. We'll look into it but I just want to get it straight,
we are under no obligation to build quarters for the sheriff's
men.
Mg. A1pgK-: And we can still have the Sheriff here
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V,/-M_St W Absolutely, however if we want them stuck here, so
that we can.wale in the door, our pevpla can walk in the door,
not a mile or two away then we will build a facility as a land-
lord and rent it to them, not as a police department, but as a
landlord of a building. D9 you see the difference? We're not
building a police facility,.wes're buiiding a building, they're
making the police facility out of it. We're building a building
and renting it to them.
U,_&�9_L: When we walk in the Sheriff's Offi;o _b!are, if we
build a building it's ... we probably may or may not have a nine
one one here. We may or may not have A .lab here. So what -I'm
trying to so is that there is a facility to be created. If we
can avoid the creation and expenditure of two and a half million
dollars.
y1 _EtQjA--: It's only six hundred and fifty thousand. It's eighty
two hsandred square feet.
Maypj; Hart: We'_rQ not talking about two and a half million
dollars unless the public decides the do not want to go with the
BSO.
Mr. Asper: I had heard that figure mentioned.
Mayor Hart: I think Carl, the answer will be if we complete, if
we start on our plans which hopefully will get started on the
Muni-cipal Complex, the space will be there to add on a police
facility of the size they need if we pass the referendum in
November. If we don't pass the referendum in November there's no
problem, We woulsi still would have to have a bigger one and this
will be considered in the plans for future expansion as the Vice
Mayor said. If by chance we go through this and our new facility
is not really, I'm sure the Sheriff's Department on a temporary
basis will make due the facilities that we have here on the basis
of rental until our new facility is really. If at any time the
Sheriff's Department would say before we go to work on building
rather it's six or eight hundred thousand, six thousand feet, or
whether it's a big building. If they say well we feel we want an
entire big police station in the City.pt Tamarac it'll be up to
them to build it and we won't chase them out. As a matter of
fact, we may even dive them the land.
Mr. Alper: Am I getting the correct impression when I hear that a
fac4l�i.ty if it's built by the City of Yamarac or any portion of
it's built by the city of Tamarac, it is for the convenience of
the people and nothing else. -T am suggesting that we look into
the savings of many hundreds of thousands of dollars.
CZM tt an: Mr. Mayor, one final question this morning.
Larry, what is the final date that the wordage of the referendum
must be submitted to Jane Carroll. You have so many days to get
it on the ballot.
MayorLart: While Larry's getting the exact date he has to submit
it to Jane Carroll's office, I want to ask if the Sheriff's
Department personnel have any further statements or questions or
anything you want to ask us.
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Page 26
CoIgnel rte • I hope tUat everyone here understands the purpose
for this meeting, 'it's quite honestly to have the elected
officials of the City of Tamarac give input so that the staff
people can put together a contract that reflects your interests
and the citizens interests. AJ4.0 with regard to the pension
meeting; which will be on uu"e twentieth we understood that Friday
was the best day for that to happen for the members of the police
department. We have asked all members of the Pension Board to be
here also. We are also asking from the Florida Retirement System
for a member; I believe Mr. Bob Henning will be here, not from
Mr. Clayton's office, but'from the Florida retirement system to
continue to deal with that transi-tior,. There is a State Statute
which deals quite succinctly with transitioning from a municipal
pension system to the Florida State Retirement System in Zhapter
one eighty five and that is laid out and I have referred that
information to your Police Department as well. I think Mr.
Clayton and the other folks will be there to answer the technical
questions of implementing a State Statute in a way that will
properly satisfy the participants, the legal responsibilities of
the Pension Board and the legal responsibilities of the City. I
would just say it's been extremely helpful and I think it's been
a productive environment _aday and I suspect it will happen that
way in the future. I didnli want to mislead you, if I have I
apologize with regard to the equipment but there is some
equipment for instance that an appraiser may say is worth three
hundred dollars that is not operational. It may be worth three
hundred dollars for salvage. -I speak particularly of let's say a
radio or something like that where the components of it are of
value to someone but the radio as a functional piece of police
equipment may not.
Mayor Hart: r want to say this I would hopefully after you get we
get the additional figures from Larry by "'uesday -and any
suggestions that Council has for input into this to submit them
in writing into Larry so he can then take them over to the proper
committ-e.e. Larry as we're suggesting any member of Council and
any member of the public for that matter, as long as you sign
your name and he knows where it's coming from, any suggestions
that you have these are the preliminary contract, submit it to
Larry in writing so that then it could be handled fo.iC 4nput and I
presume that when we get a little further beyond on this and the
second proposal and so forth embodying the changes will have to
have another workshop hopefully with a little more notice.
Larry Perretti: In answer to Councilman Gottesman's question. If
yosi want to utilize the latest registration votes that' then it is
thirty days prior to the election. The election is November the
fourth. We e have had s1T►c _1've been here in the City a
referendum before that' was put on the: ballot. If you recall
going back there there were brochures made prior to that time
when Leroy Brown and Laura Stuurmans went out to the particular
areas and gave out the' brochures to educate the people prior to
that, that would strictly be a decision up to this Council as to
whethe.c they want to proceed with a brochure type to get into the
areas"to educate the people.
CZM StglZer: We halve a resolution.
Mayor Hart: I think Councilman Gottesman asked a question which
was different. -I think he asked the final date for submitting
it.
C/,,Gottesmaa: Right, so w-e make sure we get on the ballot.
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C/M Stglzer-: September fourth_.
Larry Perretti: Well it has to be drawn up before then.
C M Gottesman: That was the purpose in asking Larry, I thought it
was ninety days.
Larry Perretti: No sixty days would be ... That's why I said we
have to finalize this thing the last week in 'duly. Vhe staff
will dress the thing up in August while you're gone and then the
first Council meeting you have in September, it will be
presented back to you for final passage''and that'll be it.
That's the way I see the time table.
C/M Gottesma-n: Fine, thank you Larry, thank you fix. Mayor.
Mayor ,mart: Anything further, Vickie?
Vickig Beech,s'dent: Not to be in conflict with Mr. -Perretti,
but I think as far as we're concerned, that was an elaborate set
up that we"had before. I think as you have the pertinent facts
of cost versus whatever it is in the simplest form possible the
bottom line is the best way to gp.. As far as having these
brochures and all these other things that we had before, they
just were coloring the subject shall we say. Thank yom.
Mgvgg Hart: Any further public comment? -Any thing else from the
Council? Arthur Gottesman.
f, Sottesman: We did agree, Council did agree, that we'll send a
1et-ter to register voters with a summary of the facts.
With no further discussions, Mayor Hart adjourned the meeting at
10:35 A.M.
CITY CLE
91
This public document was promulgated at a cost of $185.2o or $ 13-24
per copy to inform the general public and public officers an-d
employees about recent opinions and considerations by the City Council
of the City of Tamarac.
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