HomeMy WebLinkAbout1985-07-16 - City Commission Workshop Meeting MinutesMAIL REPLY TO:
P.O. BOX 25010
TAMARAC. FLORIDA 33320
5811 NORTHWEST 88TH AVENUE 0 TAMARAC, FLORIDA 3332
TELEPHONE (305) 722-5900
NOTICE OF
WORKSHOP MEETING
CITY COUNCIL
TAMARAC, FLORIDA
July 9, 1985
There has been a Workshop Meeting of the City Council scheduled for
Tuesday, July 16, 1985, at 1:00 P.M. in the Council Chambers of City
Hall, 5811 NW 88 Avenue, Tamarac.
The purpose of the meeting is to discuss the architect's plans for
the Municipal Complex.
The public is encouraged to attend.
Carol E. Barbuto
Assistant City Clerk
Pursuant to Section 286.0105, Florida Statutes
if a person decides to appeal any decision made by the city
Council with respect to any matter considered at such meeting or
hearing, he will need a record of the proceedings and for such
purpose, he may need to ensure that a verbatim record includes
the testimony and evidence upon which the appeal is to be based.
AN EQUAL OPPORTUNITY EMPLOYER
POLICY OF NONDISCRIMINATION ON THE BASIS OF HANDICAPPED STATUS
9
MAIL REPLY TO:
P,O. BOX 25010
TAMARAC, FLORIDA 33320
5811 NORTHWEST 88TH AVENUE TAMARAC, FLORIDA 33321
TELEPHONE (305) 722-5900
July 12, 1985 (REVISED)
NOTICE OF
WORKSHOP SESSION
REGARDING THE MUNICIPAL COMPLEX
Available City Council members will have a Workshop Session with the
City staff, a representative of the Planning Commission and Miller &
Meier Architects regarding the plans for the Municipal Complex on
Tuesday, July 16, 1985 at 1:00 P.M. in the Council Chambers of
City Hall, 5811 NW 88 Avenue.
This meeting will be open to the public in full compliance with
the Sunshine Law.
Carol E. Barbuto
Assistant City Clerk
Pursuant to Section 286.0105, Florida Statutes
It a person decides to appeal any decision made by the city
Council with respect to any matter considered at such meeting or
hearing, he will need a record of the proceedings and for such
purpose, he may need to ensure that a verbatim record includes
the testimony and evidence upon which the appeal is to be based.
AN EQUAL OPPORTUNITY EMPLOYER
POLICY OF NONDISCRIMINATION ON THE BASIS OF HANDICAPPED STATUS
11
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MAIL REPLY TO:
P.O. BOX 25010
TAMARAC, FLORIDA 33320
5811 NORTHWEST 88TH AVENUE 0 TAMARAC, FLORIDA 33321
TELEPHONE (305) 722-5900
July 16, 1985 (REVISED)
NOTICE OF
COMMITTEE MEETING
REGARDING THE MUNICIPAL COMPLEX
Available City Council members will have a -Committee Meeting
with the City staff, a representative of the Planning Commission
and Miller & Meier Architects regarding the plans for the Muni-
cipal Complex on Tuesday, July 16, 1985 at 1:00 P.M. in the
Council Chambers of City Hall, 5811 NW 88 Avenue.
1. Discussion of Site Plan Merits -ry Scheme C
2. City Hall Complex -- Reducing building size
to original 36,000 sq. ft. -- functional
relationship
3. Auditorium
4. Police Department Discussion
a. Communications system
b. Size of building
5. Next Meeting With Architects Before August Recess
This meeting will be open to the public in full compliance with
the Sunshine Law.
Carol E. Barbuto
Assistant City Clerk
Pursuant to Section 286.0105al yFloridasmadet by the city
If a person decides to any considered at such meeting or
Council with respect to any
hearing, he will need a record of the proceedings and for such
pure, he may need to ensure that a verbatim record includes
the testimony and evidence upon which the appeal is to be based.
AN EQUAL OPPORTUNITY EMPLOYER
POLICY OF NONDISCRIMINATION ON THE BASIS OF HANDICAPPED STATUS
July 16, 1985 (REVISED)
NOTICE OF
COMMITTEE MEETING
REGARDING THE MUNICIPAL COMPLEX
ITEMS FOR DISCUSSION
-- Reception area in the center of entrance and.accept utility
bills there
- On first floor - Personnel Department, Buildings & Community
Development Department, Engineering Department.
- The center area (area planned for atrium) could be utilized
as a Xerox -copy machine area for all offices.
- Need for large freight elevator at back of building.
- City Clerk's Office on first floor next to Council Chambers.
- Rest facilities should be brought inside
- Occupational Licensing should be on first floor
- Charter Board should be upstairs as well.
- Council agrees on outline on Revised Site Plan - Scheme C
7/16/85
/vdw
•
CITY OF TAMARAC, FLORIDA
COMMITTEE MEETING
MUNICIPAL COMPLEX
July 16, 1985
Tape 1 : V/M Massaro called the meeting to order on
Tuesday, July 16, 1985, at 1:00 P.M. in the Council Chambers of
City Hall.
11
Vice Mayor Helen Massaro
Councilman Arthur H. Gottesman
Councilman Raymond J. Munitz
Councilman Sydney M. Stein
Emil Beutner, Vice Chairman of the
Planning Commission
Larry Perretti, Acting City Manager
Jon M. Henning, City Attorney
Bob Jahn, Chief Building Official
Joseph McIntosh, Police Chief
Jordan Miller, Miller & Meier
Craig Kenyon, Miller & Meier
Patricia Marcurio, Secretary
,EpITOR'S NOTE: The following Minutes contain Verbatim comments by
the representatives of Miller & Meier & Associates; Architects..
C/M Gottesman said at this morning's Committee Meeting, there was
discussion of reducing the estimated costs of the City Hall and
the Police Station. He said there was an estimated construction
gross square footage of approximately 46,000 feet which was
brought back to the 36,000 feet that was originally recommended
as the amount required for a full build -out. He said according
to the estimate, there was 20,000 square feet for a 75,000 popu-
lation. He said the building is now 25,400 square feet and he
asked where this could be reduced for affordable cost.
C/M Stein said there is a problem with the estimate of $250,000
for the communication system for the Police Facility since the
communications in Boynton Beach, which is equal in size to Tam-
arac, has a communication system of over 1 million dollars.
V/M Massaro said the Police Chief has stated that there are 70
hand-held radios needed at $3,300 each, which will cost approxi-
mately $231,000. She said this has not been considered at all in
the estimate.
Craig Kenvon: That's a good item to start on and it's one the
Chief and I have talked about just recently. The Consultant that
the Chief and the City and we hired is Ken Filer from California
...the Communications Consultant. Ken, and I believe the Chief
will back me up... is a very experienced, knowledgeable individual
and we all respect his abilities. He has been very busy
apparently within his own firm and not, in my estimation, paid
enough attention to this project or given us what we needed to
date, i.e., a cost estimate. The only cost estimate I have
gotten from Ken is over the phone and it was a $250,000, number
and without the input I think is necessary from the Chief and his
people. I believe we share that opinion. we are not
communications experts, that is why we have hired...and why this
City in joint... actually it is ... he is the City's Consultant.
There is not even a mark-up for us in it. You are hiring
directly, paying him directly, through us, there is no mark-up,
no multiplier for Miller & Meier, you...Ken Filer is your
Consultant.
Mr. Henning asked if Mr. Kenyon could explain what Boynton Beach
received for 1 million dollars and why Tamarac does not need
that.
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/pm
Mr. Kenyon: O.K. Boynton Beach has just hired a Consultant.
Boz Allan Hamilton from... Maryland, I believe...north. O.K. up
north, not out west. Anyway, they are getting off of their
shared facility they presently have with Delray and Boca, which
is a central...I do not know, what is the word, Chief? It is a
central dispatch center for the whole Palm Beach County area,
really. Boca is setting up their own facility to handle the City
of Boca Raton, Delray is setting up their own facility to handle
Delray, so, by default they are having to set up their own system
in Boynton Beach. And, they have not put one pencil to paper
yet, we have not even signed the contract with Boz Allan yet.
So, all that has been talked about at this point is just in one
presentation meeting where they came and met with the Police
Chief in Boynton Beach and ourselves and looked at what was being
done in Boca Raton. They are talking about having to build an
entire system from scratch, towers ... they are a much bigger
community. They have a lot of mileage to cover in Boynton Beach
that you do not have in Tamarac. So, they have to have relay
towers... again, it is out of my discipline so, you know, it is
not something that I am that familiar with.
What I am told by Boz Allan themselves when I presented
Tamarac ... you know, I said, look we are working down in the City
of Tamarac and we are dealing with a population about the same
size or a force of the same size, how is it that we are dealing
with a budget that someone says is $250,000 and you guys are
saying it is a million bucks up here in Boynton Beach. And, he
says, "It is two different systems." One, is microwave ... up
there in...what they are talking about in Boynton Beach ... is a
microwave facility. Their fully -automated cab system with
computerated dispatch system, which the Chief has not said we
need here. They are an 800 megahertz system, which we will
have... trunk megahertz system here. The radios are much more
sophisticated up there. They will have a lot of features that
the Chief here has said that he did not need, so there are some
technical differences that I am told make a tremendous difference
in the price. Simply, whether it is digital or tone makes a big
difference on the radios...on the hand-held radios...in the
costs. And the other factor, that they are dealing with Motorola
and only Motorola in Boynton Beach. They are locked into
Motorola and they have to take a bid from Motorola. Nobody else
supplies the equipment up there that they will be using
interfaced with what they have. So, they will not be taking
competitive bids and here, we hope to take competitive bids from
other companies. We are trying to stay away from ... at least it
has been our hope...that our Consultant would steer us into a
situation where we could accept alternative products and obtain
the same function. But, again, it is outside of my discipline,
that is what we leave to your Consultant.
Jordan Miller: The other part is... let's see if I got this
straight... in the talks. When they set up their bond issue, they
did not know what the number should be so they used a million
dollar number. They did not know if that was twice what they
needed, three times what they needed...
V/M Massaro said they said "one to one and a half million".
Mr.. Miller: ler: Well, they did not know.
the last thing they were working with
moment, the best estimate we have from
hired here is $250,000.
They had no idea because
was the tri-system. At the
the Consultant that was
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V/M Massaro asked Chief McIntosh if he received a different
figure and he said he had received the same figure of $250,000.
He said he believes Mr. Filer is talking about a communications
system excluding the radios which total half a million dollars.
He said although the letter requested 70 radios, that is really
not enough because there should be a dozen spares or more. He
said he spoke with Motorola and G.E., who are the main suppliers,
and they said the communications system and the radios, without
security system, door locks, video system, etc. would cost at
least half a million dollars.
V/M Massaro asked Chief McIntosh what amount of extras are
anticipated for the Police Station because no extras can be
requested after the bond issue. Chief McIntosh said Mr. Filer
did a good job of putting on paper the things that would be in
the facility. He said the radio system is separate from the
communications system..
Mr, ller: Then, what we are saying is that the safer budget
number might be $700,000 or... set up the number.
C/M Stein said security is separate from the communications
system. V/M Massaro told Mr. Miller that staff is pointing out
to him that these items are not included and, realizing that,
about 10,000 feet of the City Hall and the Police Facility must
be altered as well. Chief McIntosh said the other factor is the
computer system since Tamarac is the only City that is not on
computer. He said computers and microfilming are needed just to
catch up at an approximate cost of $75,000.
Mr. Mi,llpi: We know.
C/M Munitz said he has heard 4 items that would comprise the
total cost of the Police Station: security system, communication
system, size of the building and the computer system. He asked
if they comprise the total cost of the Police Facility or are
there other things to be considered.
Mr. Kgnvon: You would have telephone communications, normal,
inside the building ... you have interior furnishings....
Mr. Henning said the building is the structure and other things
are extra.
Mr, Kenyon: Telephones you would have in there. Just standard
telephones. Telecommunications ... not radio communications but
telephone communications and furnishings. Those are the other
two ingredients you would have to add to that.
V/M Massaro asked about the flooring.
MI.,- Kenyon: That's in the building. It is either in furnishings
or it is in the building.
],fir. Miller: Are you talking about carpeting?
V/M Massaro said yes.
Mr. Miller: Carpeting is in furnishings. It is in this number
but it is in furnishings.
C/M Stein asked Chief McIntosh if there is anything that can be
reduced from the building and Chief McIntosh said there is a
court yard of approximately 1600 square feet.
3
7/16/85
/Pm
: It is also costing almost nothing.
C/M Gottesman said some of the office space could be used there.
Mr. Miller: To do what you just said will cost money.
C/M Stein said they are talking about reducing the overall out-
side size of the building.
Mr. Miller: What you said is not that simple.
V/M Massaro asked Messrs. Miller and Kenyon what can be done to
save money here.
Mr_. Miller: I would like to face that when I know actually what
your aiming at.
V/M Massaro said they are aiming at an 8 million dollar bond
issue.
Mr. Miller: Fine, does that mean we have to get a half a
million dollars out of the building?
V/M Massaro said it appears that more than that is needed to be
reduced.
Mr. Miller: Let's get to the number and then, as an architect, we
can tell you how you save money. Is
C/M Stein said they are talking about 3/4 of a million dollars
and V/M Massaro said more than that.
Mr. Miller: The fallacy is to take X number of square feet,
subtract it and multiply it times the same number that we had
when we started. We left that method of estimating when we
finished our schematic design and presented it. Now, we are
doing it by taking off quantities and materials and deciding what
is in the building or what is not in the building. What I am
trying to tell you is if you took that wall and moved it over 3
feet, you would not save that number of square feet times $60 or
$50...it does not work that way any more. It does not work that
way.
Mr._Kenv_on: Primarily, it is a functional question. What can the
Police Department live without.
Emil Beutner, Vice Chairman of the Planning Commission, said they
should show how the building will be reduced in size.
Mr. Mi11Qx,: Will you tell me how many dollars we have to get out?
C/M Gottesman said approximately 3/4 of a million dollars.
Mr. -Mill": O.K. Is that the number? 3/4 of a million dollars.
C/M Stein said between 3/4 and a million dollars on both build-
ings. V/M Massaro said it would have to be a minimum of 1
million dollars.
]fir. Miller: Can we all agree then we are looking for about a
million dollars?
4
7/16/85
/pm
V/M Massaro said that number should be determined by the archi-
tects. C/M Stein said he would like to reduce the amount of the
building without taking out essentials but the Police Chief will
have to reduce some of his requests.
Mr.. Miller: So, the effort at this point in time is to find a
million dollars in our program... the whole site, the two build-
ings, the communication systems, the telephone systems...O.K.
Chief McIntosh said when this was first discussed in 1982 or 83,
he determined that 15,000 square feet are needed. He said the
Council determined that the building should be built for total
build -out and he questioned whether the building size should be
reduced or the communication system should be eliminated. He
said presently the City goes through the Sheriff's Office and
that could be continued. V/M Massaro noted that this proposed
Police Facility is for 25,000 square feet not 15,000 and
C/M Gottesman said the projection for total build -out is 20,000
square feet.
Mr. Mi lgr: When we did our schematic, we guessed it was 20,000
square feet. 21000. When we programmed it and went through all
the details and asked about all the spaces and what have you, it
ended up to 25,000.
Chief McIntosh said Captain Mortimer devised a drawing originally
that was 17,000 square feet and they could live with that. He
said, however, as the City grows, they will have to add on.
C/M Stein asked Chief McIntosh whether he felt it would be better
to reduce the size of the building or doing without the
communications system. Chief McIntosh said he would definitely
go along with eliminating the communications system at this time.
He said this would be approximately 2/3 of a million dollars.
V/M Massaro said the communications system will not be added
little by little and C/M Stein said there has to be compromise.
M.-.-Miller: It is our understanding that smaller communities do
do it through the Sheriff's Department quite commonly. You are
not doing something unique.
V/M Massaro said the residents want the best protection which
they do not receive through the Sheriff's Department.
Mr. Miller: Can we then assume that what he is saying is basic-
ally true and we have just taken care of 2/3 of our million?
C/M Stein said no, there is disagreement concerning reducing the
building.
M-r,-Miller:
O.K. Again, we have got to go back to our program a
little bit
and
decide. When we set together these estimates we
are trying
to
be a little careful. We do not know exactly what
happens in
the
bid process or the market. As you know...you are
not in trouble
yet because you do not even know what the price
is. What
I am
suggesting to you in the bidding alone there can
be a variance
that could save us some money.
5
7/16/85
/pm
Mr._MIller: I guess I could have just as easily said that this
would cost 1/2 a million dollars less as my best guess because
the fact of the matter is within 5% or thereabouts of the number
that I think it is going to come in for, I do not know. And
neither does anybody doing estimating short of ... but I am on the
safe side. I am not a gambler. I try to play safe. What I am
suggeting to you is that you could know very quickly.
By.the way, this estimate ... our building is set assuming certain
things happen. That somewhere near the end of July, which was
the schedule we were contemplating, we would have a final idea of
what we were going to finish up with on the site...that we would
finish that site and go out for bids sometime in August. What I
am saying is we are going out for bids sometime in September so
this is assuming a September bid. Things go up or down from that
point.
C/M Stein asked if 4,000 square feet is removed will there be a
saving.
Mr. Miller: If you take this 4,000 square feet of roof and you
cover that, you did not save any roof. All we would really be
saving is the foundation work involved in this 4,000 square feet.
The petitions, the interior, the distribution system iystem and
everything would go in there. Frankly, if in this 4,000 square
feet I saved $25,000 by making that move, I would be doing very
well. I would spend more than $25,000 to re -engineer.
There is $100,000 in our services in here that's already done.
V/M Massaro noted that the size of both proposed buildings has
grown and she questioned who authorized the spreading of these
buildings.
Kxsll,er: The schematic design... Council approved the sche-
matic design where the building spread. So, this has already
been approved by Council. We do not have to go through that
again. Everybody knew. They had our budget. The budget was
given to them.
Mr. Kenyon: Each time it went to Council we told them the footage
went up and the cost and they said "O.K.".
Mr. Miller: Our orders are to go to the City Manager and the City
Manager would decide where to go from there. Can we back up, you
were asking me how to find a million dollars.
C/M Stein noted that the equipment storage area must be relocated
for the police facility.
Mr. Miller: Does everyone have this number? Would you come back
to this because I will show you a couple of things in this number
that we can deal with. What you just described involves a site
plan.
C/M Stein said the site plan that was submitted by Miller & Meier
had the mechanicals in the wrong place.
Mr. Miller: We should talk about that a little bit because...
we have a couple of numbers in here that we were very careful
about. Because we felt very uneasy about the site and the site
development number, we used a very heavy number. What we have in
here is roughly 13 acres of area and we have allowed $80,000 an
acre to finish parking and landscaping. That happens to be a
huge number. That number is probably twice what it should be.
Our problem was we did not know what was coming. The site plan
was not decided. If the lagoon came in we saw costs of $200,000
to $250,000.
1-1
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7/16/85
/ pm
Miller: It depended
on what would happen and
how it would
happen. We were very frightened
by that number.
We also recog-
nize that you were going
into the main road. So,.this
to make another curb cut
number is a flier.
and an entrance
We think that
this number...
V/M Massaro asked what a
realistic number is for
this.
Killer: Probably half of that. We are parking 400 cars.
Very generally, parking spaces cost us about $600 to $800 a car.
You know, that's a ... and then a couple hundred thousand for
landscaping ... I am $400,000 heavy depending on what you throw at
me at that site. If my site would have held, that number would
be half of that number.
C/M Munitz questioned what Mr. Miller meant.
Mr. filler: You understand what has been happening over the last
months. We have been told about a lot of things ... going back to
the original site, there is probably $400,000 or $500,000 in that
number right there. Now, let's go back to the building.
Tape 2 I think that we can ... the cost of interior furnishing and carpet-
ing, we also have very comfortable numbers. We have not actually
selected the furniture, the carpeting and what have you. And, we
have numbers in there for carpeting thot,are really quite healthy
and we have assumed a buy of a lot of things in furnishings. We
have pretty well assumed that we are going to go out and buy all
the furniture, that we are not going to reuse anything. That is
what that number represents.
C/M Gottesman referred to Miller & Meier's estimate of 1984 which
stated, "Carpeting $200,000 plus $260,000 or $400,0000.
Mr. Miller: We have now moved that up to $800,000 because...
by the way, you understand that we only get a percentage of what
you actually spend. If you buy...
V/M Massaro said the figure is needed that will be removed from
the contract.
Mr. Miller: The figure that we would remove is the whole thing.
V/M Massaro said there must be an approximate figure because that
comes within the bond issue.
C/M Stein asked how many yards of carpeting is being discussed.
Mr. biller: I do not have an indication...
C/M Stein said the amount of $460,000 must have been determined
somehow. He said the overall footage figure is 25 whatever
number it is, however, if it was reduced to 20 times it would not
work that way.,
Mr. Miller: Fill in the hole, furnish it, finish it, partition
it, roof it, air condition it, electrify it ... you obviously have
not saved the whole hole.
C/M Stein asked if this building were reduced from 25,000 feet to
20,000 (exterior walls) square feet, could this be multiplied
times 20 for the total number.
7
7/16/85
/pm
Mr. Miller: Absolutely. 20 times 4,000 is $80,000. 4,000 feet
times 20 is $80,000. It is not enough money. $69.00 per foot is
all the parts of the building.
C/M Stein said if Mr. Miller said the building would cost $69.00
per foot to build for 20,000 square feet, why would that amount
change.
MX. Miller: If you did it ... well, this is the hardest part of
explaining costs ... how we draw to meet a cost. You could easily
say I do not want to spend $69.00, I want to spend $60.00... when
you walked in my door the first time and said you would like to
build a building, what do you think it will cost per square foot.
We are doing some guessing. I am telling you that what we are
doing at that point in time is we are estimating and, based on my
experience over a lot of years, I can tell you roughly what a
building is going to cost. Please be patient with me.
When we then go about drawing the building, we have that number
in mind. If the number is a tough one for us to deal with, we
might square the building more and less people get windows. We
might use less expensive materials to finish the building. We
can make a building go up or down 5 or 10 dollars by just our
finishing items that we select. The kind of doors, the kind of
windows and that number is in our head from the day we set that
number with you. So ... because when you get... let me finish.
V/M Massaro asked how much the building would cost if someone
wanted to build a building 20,000 square feet.
Mr, M le-r: It would cost $69.00 times 20. If you and I would
like to start over again, somebody is going to cover the $100,000
for what we have already drawn.
C/M Stein said that is different, Mr. Miller is stating that the
City has already spent $100,000 to date with these plans and if
they are scrapped all of that may not be saved.
Mr. Miller: To begin with, we have programmed space for 25,000
square feet so we would have to start over again and somebody
would have to tell us what we can eliminate in the space require-
ments to get down to 20,000. Anytime you want to start a build-
ing from scratch, that is all it takes.
Mr. Seutner said Mr. Miller should suggest the numbers.
Miller: I did.
It is in the file. We went to 25,000, we
were told to build
it. We were talking about interior finishes
and I was trying to
give you some numbers involving carpeting and
furnishings that would
help you a lot.
C/M Gottesman said
if this concept is redrawn something will be
salvaged.
Mr. Miller: What?
The layout is going to be the same? When you
put some of those offices
over here, I have to redraw the plan,
Arthur, that is the
problem. And, if I redraw the plan and I
redo the structure
and I redo the mechanical and I redo the
electrical, I have
to redo the plan.
C/M Gottesman said
the City could possibly save $350,000 by
reducing 5,000 feet.
He said he understands it will cost money
to save those 5,000
feet.
8
7/16/85
/pm
Mrs .Killer: That is definite..
C/M Gottesman asked how much it would cost since all the phases
have been gone through already and there are no schematics need-
ed. He asked Chief McIntosh if the gym and the training room are
used simultaneously and the Chief said yes.
V/M Massaro said the building is based on cost per foot.
Mr. Miller: There is one thing. At this point in time, the
building cost is based on what we now have on paper. The per
square foot system of estimating has now gone away. Since we did
our schematics we forgot per square foot costs. Now, we count
partitions, we count roofs, we count structure, we count walls,
we count foundations, we count what is there to derive the cost.
I think if you will go back into your numbers, two years ago when
we gave you those numbers they were something less than $70.00
per square foot. The costs go up over two years.
C/M Stein said the plumbing will probably stay the same since the
amount of restrooms has not changed.
C/M Gottesman asked if the eight proposed holding cells are
necessary and Chief McIntosh said the juveniles, women and men
must be separated. He..said possibly two cells could be removed.
V/M Massaro asked how much can be reduced from this building and
Chief McIntosh said the plans should be given to him and they
will try to redesign the building.
MY. Miller: Let me ask you something. Is it possible that we
could build 4 cells now and just leave the space for 4 more in
case we needed them?
Chief McIntosh said the space is still needed.
Mr_. Miller: You know, if you said...it is possible that we could
save 40 or 50 thousand dollars by not building 4 of the cells but
having the space to build.them later. Now, what that would do is
that would save you the 40 or 50 today but... one day when you
need...
V/M Massaro said the prisoners are picked up twice a day by the
Sheriff's Office, therefore, those spaces are not needed. She
said Chief McIntosh should take the plans and try to redesign
them on a smaller scale since she would rather not touch the
communications system.
Mr. Miller: Can we back up again. We started working on interi-
ors and furnishings. Let's do that because right now I think
that there is probably $400,000 that we can do on site work to
save. In our plan....
V/M Massaro said these items will have to be picked out as the
savings.
Mr, Miller: We have set up close to $800,000... over $800,000 for
furniture and furnishings for the two buildings. That is the
rugs and the furniture. The rugs ... as a rough estimate...I think
will cost somewhere between 120 and 140 thousand dollars using
$20 a yard as a figure. That is a very high price..
C/M Stein said that is not a high price.
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Mr— filler: It depends on what you want to buy. We buy it...at
these lots ... we are buying it for shopping centers and office
buildings at 12 and 14 laid. It depends on padding ... it depends
on what kind of carpet you want...I mean...for 20 bucks...I am
building an office building downtown and one in Cypress Creek. I
am putting into my office one hell of a good grade of carpet and
I am going to pay $12.00 a yard laid. It is commercial ... I am
allowing $20.00...
V/M Massaro asked where Mr. Miller is buying the carpet.
Mr. Miller: I am buying it from ... what is the name of that
outfit? We are buying it through a wholesale place in Boston. I
will get you their name. I will show you the carpet. It is an
excellent piece of carpet. It is going to cost us 12 it could
cost 14...we are getting a little better break.
Stratton Carpet.
Mr, Miller: Stratton Carpet. Yes. I will bring you the sample. I
will show you the sample. We are involved in this every day.
And, in our office building we are allowing $20.00 a foot...foot
installed.
V/M Massaro asked if it cost $12.00 installed.
Mr. Miller: Installed. Yes. We are allowing $20.00 for this
number. That is $140,000. Now, I guessed that there is 7,000
yards of carpet. That may be a little fat. I mean, I have not
gone through the building. That is a little comfortable. But,
we are looking for outside numbers. Now, let's talk about what
else we have to buy to furnish this space. Tables, chairs and
desks. Carpeting...o. k., the difference between $140,000 for
the two buildings and the $824,000 is what I have got to buy..
tables chairs and desks and what have you. That is $600,000. I
would suspect...
V/M Massaro said another $200,000 should be put aside for furni-
ture since many of the desks and chairs will be used from the old
City Hall.
Mr. Miller: O.K. $200,000 and $140,000 is $340,000. $340,000 off
of $824,000 is a half a million dollars. So...
C/M Gottesman said it is $824.00 plus $58,000 commission.
Mr, Miller: You are right. O.K. So, we are saving close to a half
a million dollars in the furnishings and $400,000 in the site,
assuming that we agree on a site. That's $900,000 right there
and if he holds his communications until we know whether we got
money or not ... you have got almost a million and a half dollars
cushion to go out and buy the buildings that you now have drawn.
V/M Massaro said the communications should not be touched.
Mr._KCeny-on: No, no. $500,000 in the furnishings and $400,000 in
the site.
Mr. Miller: We were looking for a million. I just showed you how
I can find $900,000 and for $100,000 I will squeeze something.
For the other 100 that I need to come up to one million, I will
squeeze something.
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V/M Massaro said the Council is more concerned about the safety
of people than about the size of the facility.
: I agree. It is in our figures.
V/M Massaro said $7r300,000 is not close enough.
Mr. Miller,: We just took $900,000 off of $7,300,000.
V/M Massaro said that was already put back into communications.
Mr. Miller,: Well, you said you were looking for a million
dollars. I just found a million dollars.
V/M Massaro said a million dollars is not enough.
Mr. Miller,: I've got a problem. How much do you want us to save?
Show me. Let's put numbers here.
Mr. Beutner suggested a total of 2 million dollars savings and
V/M Massaro said that is more reasonable.
Mr. Miller: No. Well, then you have got to start from scratch.
Let me tell you something. We started this project two years
ago. The difference between ... this is terribly important...I am
trying to tell you a number of things ... a dollar cost. If we
start over again, program, redraw and what have you we are going
to spend 6 months ... it only took us two years to do it the first
time. Why it will only take 6 months the next time, I do not
know. It will take me 6 months to redraw it or to go through all
the steps that we went through to get to where we are. You have
to go through all those steps if you are going to reprogram this
building and redesign it.
C/M Stein suggested discussion be made concerning the City Hall
building.
Referring to the drawings displayed on the table, C/M Stein noted
that there was discussion concerning putting the mechanics on the
other side of the Police Station.
jar. -Killer: This thing here serves this building. We kept trying
to get this close to this building so that we did not have to run
long lines to do it. I could figure out what it costs to put it
over here...I just have to rewire it and do a few things but I
could figure out what it costs.
Mr. Kenyon: We would not want the sally to be over here.
Mr. Miller: I would take this whole thing and flip it like that.
I have got to check the front door. The front door will be back
here. I could do that. You see, to do that, all I have to do is
put my plans upside down and reletter them. Wait a minute,
before you leave this site, is the lagoon in or out?
V/M Massaro said the lagoon is out.
Mr. Miles: If the lagoon is out, dollar -wise I can do this for
the dollars we talked about in here. The $400,000. The lagoon
was the thing that scared us and worried us about the numbers.
C/M Gottesman asked why.
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M-r,_Miller: Because it is expensive.
C/M Gottesman disagreed that the lagoon was an expensive item.
Mr. tel: Our estimate right now with our engineers are that it
will cost at least $200,000. If it is off, then you can use the
numbers that I gave you. So, you have got $900,000 off of our
numbers for furnishings and site work.
Mr, -Kenyon: Were you planning on a berm in the bank by the canal?
Mr. Miller: Remember I said the one thing that worried me was the
lagoon. If you wanted the lagoon I needed a bigger number.
Did I say that before? I am on the tape, right? How much money
are we trying to save here now?
Mr. Henning said, first of all, the atrium and the light roof are
going. The Committee is considering asking for a traditional
hallway in the center and the glass windows that look into the
hallway are going. He said the suggestion that C/M Gottesman had
was that the exterior perimeter wall be left the same and that
the interior walls be moved in and then cut off 20 or 50 feet
from the end.
Mr. Miller: Redo the layouts inside. The office layouts change
Mr. Henning said if 50 feet are cut off from the end there is
some redesigning work necessary.
MT -.-Miller: If you cut off that end, the Mayor goes in the middle
of the hallway. So, you are going to redo the layout are you?
C/M Stein said many departments are not satisfied since they feel
they are proposed to be on the wrong floor.
Mr- Miller: Which ones are on the wrong floor?
C/M Stein said if the plans were turned upside down, they would
be close to correct.
Mr. Henning said they realize that the second floor has smaller
space than the ground floor but at the north end of the building,
they are basically, flipping that side.
Mr, Killer.* The department is bigger so how do you get that to
fit?
C/M Gottesman there should be 6,000 to 8,000 feet available in
the two halls.
Mi.,-Miller: Arthur, if you take the ground floor, which is bigger
and put it on the second floor...
C/M Gottesman said they are talking about eliminating the atrium
and this area will be available plus an area larger than this on
the second floor.
Mr. Miller: But, you can not move the bigger department from the
first floor to the second floor because you have more square
footage on the first floor.
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Mr. Kenvon: Where is Finance going in your new scheme? Finance
Purchasing, Accounting... that is your biggest department...square
footage► that is your biggest department.
Mr. Henning said the Finance Department had half of the bottom
floor and, except for some of the computer equipment that would
stay on the ground floor for servicing, size and weight, the
Council wants to put the Finance Department upstairs.
Mr, Kenyon: Forget the courtyard...I am just saying ... where would
the department go? (Referring to "Items for. Discussion" list -
See Attachment 1). City Clerk, you say, next to Council
Chambers, it is on the first floor. The City Clerk is next to
Council Chambers on the first floor. That is where it is right
now so there is no change to that area... functionally. O.K.
Mr. Henning said the north side is being flipped. He said below
that, where originally there was the Engineering Department and
Community Development, they want those brought downstairs.
Mr. Miller: There is the problem. We put the larger group under.
You are trying to put the larger group over. Whether you go and
eat up the atrium with those groups or not, you still have the
problem of a larger second floor than first floor. That is not
the cheap way to build, that is the expensive way to build. Do
you understand what I have said.
V/M Massaro said she understands but they are concerned about
where the public goes and the public should not be in the Finance
Department. Mr. Perretti said the Data Processing Department
does not have to be kept in the Finance Department any longer and
can be on the ground floor.
Mr. Miller: We still have the problem of fitting on the upper
floor ... we have got to develop some kind of balance. When we got
to the end of that balance, the thing downstairs should be bigger
than upstairs. Here is the tragedy ... and I am not saying we
should or should not do it. This is what we decided a year and a
half ago and, of course, we went out ... my problem is that I spent
$150,000 to do it and I have to do it over again.
C/M Stein said it should not have to all be done over since the
basic concept is not being changed.
Mr. Miller: The concept is gone. The structure is gone. The
windows are gone. The center corridor is gone. The elevators
are gone ... you cannot use the same shape building as the space
will not fit any more.
C/M Stein said certain departments are not critical and can be
put either upstairs or downstairs.
w Hiller: We have to restructure...the whole structure is
wrong. The floor structure is wrong. Everything. The whole
structure has to change. I have to fill it in now. I have to do
a different structure. The structure is incorrect.
Mr. Henning asked if it would be less expensive to make the
hallway narrower, bring in the perimeter walls and use this basic
layout. He said there are two different concepts, first, leave
it as a wide building, slice off a piece and reprogram the whole
thing to make use of more space in the center.
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M1, Miller: What I guess we would have to do is review or
relisten to the square footage requirements of each of these
departments because you are saying that is going to change and we
.will have to change those layouts. So, we go back to our program
and the first thing we could do is redo or revise or reevaluate
the program. From that program we could do a sketch to show how
we would revise this building. Assuming we can save the building
in the process. We are talking about redoing the design...
Mr. Jahn, Chief Building Official, said they are attempting to
get the high public traffic areas on the first floor and the
other departments on the second floor. He said most people are
generated in the Building Department, Personnel in the Building,
Engineering and Personnel Departments.
Mr. Kil2er: We would redo ... we have got to go back to the program
and decide how big each of these areas have to be and where they
want to be. O.K.? We would then do a redesign to determine
whether or not we could fit them into this building. And, if we
can, what we can knock off...how many square feet we can knock
off. To do that we are doing a redraw and, within your contract
you can ask us to do that...
Tape 3 C/M Stein said Council would like a way to get from the Council
Chambers to a lounge/meeting room with restroom facilities. He
said the room that is noted as a "Lounge" in the Council Chambers
area they would like to be a Press Room.
Mr. Miller: There is no architecture left.
C/M Gottesman noted that the outside doors to the Chambers could
have a doorway put across there to create a vestibule. He said
the restrooms should be internal as well. Mr. Henning said
Council would like the Chambers attached to the building.
MX._M!1 _er: What you are really asking me to do ... and I have no
problem with that... is to start over, and I will do that. It is
your wish.
C/M Stein said he did not want to wait 6 months for this.
Mr. Miller: I am telling you that you are doing enough to this
building that that will not happen.
Mr. Kenyon: The adjustments that you have just been talking about
are easily 6 months of work.
RK,_M.i11g1: Easily, because to go back to the program, to get the
design, to get everybody to approve the design in each of the
departments, do the layouts for their offices, put in the furni-
ture, redo the electrical, redo the mechanical...
V/M Massaro said the furniture does not have to be done.
Mr. Miller: Make sure that it fits in the rooms. The rooms are
going to change. I cannot push that corridor together and not
get the rooms to change. No problem, but if the square foot then
divides into offices for individual things that houses furniture
and the way you design that is you decide somebody is going to
have a desk, a chair, a file and they are going to have lights
and plugs and telephone outlets and draw them out a plan.
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C/M Stein suggested the departments be given the space and layout
their own offices. He said an incoming Council person may decide
to put furniture in a different location.
Mr. Miller: Well, if he does it in the next administration, at
least he started from somebody who has approved the last one.
C/M Stein repeated that the department heads should layout their
own departments.
Mr-, Miller: That is what happened here. I agree with you. That
is what we have to do over again.
Mr. K_e_nvon: But who is going to draw that?
C/M Stein said Miller & Meier will draw that.
: We know that Personnel needs 5,000 feet ... they will
need 5,000 feet in the new scheme we are talking about, okay, but
how we arrange that 5,000 feet and where it goes... for instance,
he wants to be on the first floor now vs. second floor... it is a
new layout. It is just design. It is what we do.
Mr._Mi ler: Assuming that we have the same budget to build
with...3 million dollars...that is what we had for this building.
Is that the budget? What is the budget?
Mr. Kenyon: Budget ... what is your budget? The dollars you want
to spend on the construction of this building.
C/M Stein said the budget is 2-1/2 million dollars.
Mrs .Kjller: O.K. We now have 2-1/2 million dollars. That is the
new budget for this building. If I can give you a little bit
more building for 2-1/2 million dollars, you won't get mad at me?
You have one problem... which is not really a problem. For us to
redo the work, we have to get paid. Well, can somebody say "Yes,
go ahead and do it?"
C/M Stein asked the cost involved.
Mr. Miller: Well, essentially, we are starting over in the
schematic design. If, in fact, we can save part of the building,
and I do not have to redraw it as working drawings, that is a
saving. We had $150,000 already spent to this point in time.
Mr. Kenyon: Would the. Council... let me ask...the Auditorium right
now is really treated as a separate building? I mean it has
a... it has its own structure, its own...its a self-supporting
building. it is ... you have expressed a need ... you want to attach
it to or move it closer to or somehow ... but would it stay the way
it is? The size would stay, the design would stay ... all the
drawings we have for that would stay the way they are? The
Council Chambers stays alone.
Mr. Miller: You just said... just so you move it around a little
bit. You add a little bit there and change the toilets...
Mr. Kenyon: I just changed the title of the Press Room. O.K. But
here you are saying take these toilets and turn them, that is
work. And also toilets here and the lounge there, that is work.
But anything else. Do you want this pushed into there or any-
thing?
C/M Stein said no.
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Kenyon: I am not going to touch the Auditorium/Council
Chambers. The 250 seats that are in there stay that way. Double
doors there...
Mr. Miller: If you could save a third of your normal process you
would save $50,000. We would spend $100,000 to get back to
where ... that is my best guess at the moment and, frankly, it is
riding horseback. We are $150,000 into it to this point in time.
If we backed up, started over again, how much can I save of what
we have already done? I do not know yet and I will not know
until I have done a schematic to determine that you like it for
what we end up doing. That schematic is probably... in the last
program of things, the schematic was $30,000. Craig thinks that
we can save 10 of what is in there as far as the schematic is
concerned so that is $20,000. 1 would suggest to you at the end
of schematic we would know what we are changing in the building
and then be able to determine how much money we are saving and
all those other little things. The schematic is enough of a
drawing to describe what the building is going to be. It does
not get into the details but it lays out the offices... there is
$20,000 to redo the schematic as you are describing it. I think,
at least, $20,000 is the number. I would not suggest that you do
more than that until you see the schematic because, remember, we
are aiming at saving a half a million dollars from what we have
here but we are going to spend something to get to that point in
two ways. Number one, in reengineering and number two, there is
going to be a delay of some months before you can go out for bids
and get bids again. And, I would like you to know that although
the cost of building is not going up fast it is going up. It is
going up between 4 and 5% a year. So every year we wait could be
between 4 and 5% of our budget.
C/M Gottesman asked if the amount of $20,000 was for both build-
ings and they said no, just this building. V/M Massaro said the
first thing to be done is to get figures on everything that is
needed in City Hall and in the Police Station as well. She said
after it is determined how much money is going into the total
picture and how much will be saved by the items mentioned today,
then it can be determined how to proceed.
Mr. Miller: I agree. If the schematic saves us 1/3 of our working
drawings then we would still have to... it depends on what the
schematic says. We could still spend another $80,000 if we save
1/3 of the normal costs of... I'll be happy to put it down.
V/M Massaro suggested Mr. Miller put this into a report so that a
Special Meeting can be called to consider these things.
Mr. Miller: By the way, assuming that you were just interested in
switching the two departments, the Finance upstairs and the
Building and all those guys coming downstairs, and you wanted to
do it in this building that we now have... the cost to redo those
two layouts we could also give you. If you just...
C/M Stein said no, Council is not happy with the atrium or the
design.
Mr. Miller: I have a terrible problem. Somewhere out there over
a lot of years, 40 years, I got trained to be an architect. And,
part of my challenge was to create for my client something that
they could be proud of ... we are not talking about the
dollars...
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7/16/85
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Mr. Killer; It is not more expensive to operate the building we
have designed then what we are now talking about. Please. if
you recognize that cost it will be a miracle. You are asking a
professional opinion. I am telling you it is not. I am making
my swan song to give you some architecture instead of just
another box. You are an important City. You want an image.
We are all on record. We are all here to accomplish a task for
the City and I am telling you architecture is an important
ingredient in you accomplishing your task. And, I would hope
that we do not ruin this building to a point where we will not be
happy with the end product. So, I would like to make a strong
pitch...
C/M Gottesman said the peaked roof can stay in the plans.
Mr, .Killer: You will not see
cause it is open inside. You
to live in an office without
middle of that building there
an atrium.
that... it would be seen now Be-
are going to ask those people now
any windows. Entirely. In the
cannot be a window unless you get
V/M Massaro noted that she has windows from ceiling to floor and
the electric lights are still on all day.
Mr. Miller: That is because your lighting system was not set up
so,that you could turn down some of those lights. It is in this
office. We have new systems today. During certain times of day
you end up with fewer lights and you save fuel. Now you are
going to. "look, a typical office space in an office building
from the corridor to the outside wall is something like 30 or 40
feet. 40 is really quite deep because then you end up with a lot
of people that are in enclosed spaces without windows. This is a
much wider building. So, what we are going to do is we are going
to take a lot of people and they are going to be in very dungeon
like space. I am suggesting to you that that is not good design.
V/M Massaro repeated that Council does not want an atrium.
Mr. Miller: Then, we will have to do a different shaped building
to give you good ... please, look, I have designed a lot of office
buildings. You are asking me to do something that is not good
design and I do not think you want to do that. You want me to
give you a good building. I am sorry, that is a problem, so I
will give you a building that does not have an atrium. It will
just be a different shaped building. There are lots of buildings
without atriums.
Acting City Manager Perretti asked what Miller & Meier's time-
table will be to present this break -down requested since there is
a Special Meeting scheduled for Friday, 7/19/85 and a Regular
Meeting scheduled for 7/24/85. He.said there is then the August
break.
M : First, I think we should sit down with each of the
departments and find out if we can use what we have now or should
we just take what you told us today and draw it?
V/M Massaro said what was said today is what should be the base
for the Letter of Proposal that is necessary.
Mr. Miller: Well, we will have the letter for you on ... Thursday
...we'll have it for Thursday night.
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V/M Massaro asked Mr. Miller to give the various changes in the
figures on the different components like the outdoor site.
Mi.-Miller: You see, he uses a very good example here, he showed
me a building. This building is a long, narrow building.
Somebody showed us the site plan and we addressed that.
V/M Massaro said she wanted to be sure that adequate space is
reserved for the future Community Center.
Mr. Kenyon: That is a 15,000 square foot figure that is there.
Mr. Miller: What kind of Community Center are you going to have?
V/M Massaro said she had hoped there would be between 15,000 to
20,000 feet reservation for the Center.
Mr. Miller: We are designing a building for Coral Springs right
now that is going to be a combination gym, theatre, meeting rooms
and what have you for a Community Center but that is going close
to 50,000 feet.
V/M Massaro said she had hoped for a gym for the children of the
City.
V/M Massaro adjourned the meeting at 3:10 P.M.
ASSISTANT CITY CLERK --
This document was promulgated at a cost of $89.20 or $2.35
per copy.
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July 16, 1985 (REVISED)
(ATTACHMENT #1)
ITEMS FOR DISCUSSION
- Reception area in the center of entrance and -accept utility -
bills there
- On first floor - Personnel Department, Buildings & Community
Development Department, Engineering Department.
- The center area (area planned for atrium) could be utilized
as a Xerox -copy machine area for all offices.
- Need for large freight elevator at back of building.
- City Clerk's Office on first floor next to Council Chambers.
- Rest facilities should be brought inside
- Occupational Licensing should be on first floor
Charter Board should be upstairs as well.
- Council agrees on outline on Revised Site Plan - Scheme C
7/16/85
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