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HomeMy WebLinkAbout1985-07-05 - City Commission Special Meeting Minutesf 1-1 MAIL REPLY TO: P.O. BOX 25010 TAMARAC, FLORIDA 33320 5811 NORTHWEST 88TH AVENUE TAMARAC, FLORIDA 33321 TELEPHONE (305) 722-5900 July 3, 1985 NOTICE OF SPECIAL MEETING CITY COUNCIL OF TAMARAC, FLORIDA There will be a Special Meeting of the City Council on Friday, July 5, 1985, at 10:00 a.m., in the Council Chambers of City Hall, 5811 NW 88 Avenue, Tamarac, Florida. The purpose of this meeting is discussion and possible action regarding the City Manager. Carol E. Barbuto Assistant City Clerk Pursuant to Section 286.0105, Florida Statutes If a person decides to appeal any decision made by the city Council with respect to any matter considered at such meeting or hearing, he will need a record of the proceedings and for such purpose, he may need to ensure that a verbatim record includes the testimony and evidence upon which the appeal is to be based. AN EQUAL OPPORTUNITY EMPLOYER POLICY OF NONDISCRIMINATION ON THE BASIS OF HANDICAPPED STATUS k CITY OF TAMARAC, FLORIDA SPECIAL CITY COUNCIL MEETING JULY 5, 1985 Tape CALL TO ORDER: Mayor Philip B. Kravitz called the meeting 1 to order on Friday, July 5, 1985 at 10:00 A.M. in the Council Chambers. PRESENT: Mayor Philip B. Kravitz T Vice Mayor Helen Massaro Councilman Arthur H. Gottesman Councilman Raymond J. Munitz Councilman Sydney M. Stein ALSO PRESENT: City Manager Elly F. Johnson City Attorney Jon M. Henning Diane Williams, Secretary MEDITATION AND PLEDGE OF ALLEGIANCE: Mayor Kravitz called or a Moment of Silent Meditation followed by the Pledge of Allegiance. 1. Beautification Committee - Discussion and possible action on acceptance ot a resignation. SYNOPSIS OF ACTION: Agendized by Consent See page C/M Stein MOVED to Agendize by Consent the acceptance of a resignation by a member of the Beautification Committee and a request that he be reinstated as an alternate. SECONDED by V/M Massaro. 103NOF ALL VOTED AYE 1. Beautification Committee - Discussion and possible action on acceptance ot a resignation. SYNOPSIS OF ACTION: ACCEPTED resignation of William Sutter as a regular member of the Beautification Committee and request to be reinstated as an alternate; vacancy announced. Mayor Kravitz reported that he had received a memo from Florence Bochenek, Chairperson of the Beautification Committee, dated July 4, 1985, stating that Bill Sutter has requested that he be removed as a regular member of the Beautification Committee and be reinstated as an alternate. C/M Stein MOVED to accept Bill Sutter's resignation and announce a vacancy for the Beautification Committee. V/M Massaro SECONDED citing a desperate need to have a full member Beautification Committee. VOTE: ALL VOTED AYE Mayor Kravitz said an item will appear on Council's agenda for the next regular meeting (7/10/85) whereby Council will be given an opportunity to select a replacement as a regular member of the Committee. He announced that anyone wishing to apply do so between now and Wednesday, July 10, 1985 in order that Council may consider the applications. 2. City Manager - Discussion and possible action regarding t e City Manager. SYNOPSIS OF ACTION: APPROVED motion, AS AMENDED, to relieve the City Manager of his duties, with pay, until., July 9, 1985 at 10 A.M. at which time there will be a hearing held in public regarding his dismissal. The City Attorney stipulated that this public hearing is without cause and no grounds have been given other than comments made by C/M Gottesman. Mayor Kravitz noted that it is not a public hearing but the public is invited. The following is a verbatim transcript of Item 2 - City Manager - Discussion and possible action regarding the Citv Manager: MAYOR KRAVITZ: Let's move on with our special meeting. C/M Gottesman uh... your memorandum as I have it dated July 3rd requested a Special City Council Meeting for discussion and possible action re: City Manager ... uh... Would you like to... go on that? C/M GOTTESMAN: Thank you, Mayor and all Council members. After considerable thought, I wish to put forth the following motion: "I hereby move that we terminate the employment of the City Manager effective immediately upon its passage due to an existence of a real and nonproductive difference in management philosophy which currently exists between incumbent City Manager and, I believe, of this City Council. I do not believe that it is..that it is in the best interest of this City that the present situation continue in the future. Agree to issue payments of four (4) weeks salary, at the present rate, as severance pay, and, in addition, the payment of accrued leave as provided in the personnel manual which shall be the complete liquidated damages against the City. This is in accordance with the resolution appointing the City Manager". MAYOR KRAVITZ: This is a motion that was made and I'm going to ask Council for a second before we go into discussion. I would like to release my chair, if I may, to the Vice Mayor at this time, and I would like to SECOND that motion.... We now have a motion and a second. I'll open this up for discussion. C/M STEIN: Mr. Mayor? MAYOR KRAVITZ: Councilman Stein. V/M MASSARO: You've released the chair, Mr. Mayor. C/M STEIN: But he wants it back again now. V/M MASSARO: He didn't ask for it. MAYOR KRAVITZ: I'll let ... I'll let her hold it. C/M STEIN: All right ... I am completely flabbergasted at the action of this —and the proceduire that has taken place at this moment. From ... his own words, the Mayor said he knew nothing about what this was all about. I didn't know -2- 7/5/85 j /vdw J anything. I don't know who knew anything about it ... No memorandums was sent to anyone. We're talking about dis- missing ... the chief operating officer of the city —which is a very, very serious situation... Whether C/M Gottesman thinks there is a difference of philosophy, it may be just his difference and the Mayor's as he seconded —the motion; however, I would at least think in the spirit of any fairness. that all members of the Council should have been given the information to deliberate, to digest...to make up their opinion. To walk in here with no backup, no notion of what's going on and being given motion to dismiss the City Manager, without cause, except a difference of opinion...I think is contrary to the aims of this city and the aims of this Council. I violently object to the entire procedure; I'm not even talking to the validity of any of the charges.. They have nothing to do with what I'm talking about. I'm talking about the procedure as it was done. We have a meeting on Wednesday, a regular meeting .... if C/M Gottesman wanted to make these charges, he should have sent these charges around to the Council so they could have digested it and put it on the agenda for Wednesday. I don't know what the urgency was ... This thing was not publicized... How could it be? No- body even knows what we're talking about. It was done in the midst of the Fourth of July holiday where most people are out of town; there's nobody around, and I think it would be terribly for this Council to take such an act without the public having the right to know what's going on ... and more than that, that we know what's going on and why. Thank you. V/M MASSARO: Is there any further discussion? C/M MUNITZ: Yes. V/M MASSARO: Councilman Munitz. C/M MUNITZ: Thank you. You know, to say that this has come as a shock..is putting it rather mildly ... For the sake o ... avoiding redundancy I will not repeat practically every word that C/M Stein has said because everything that he said is absolutely true. It's unbelievable in a democratic... supposedly, democratic city, like the City of Tamarac, operating under the rules and principles of democracy on which this great nation was founded ... and we just celebrated its birthday just yesterday, 209th birthday. Where is Tamarac heading? Are we heading towards a dictatorship? Are we heading where it will be a question of bringing up items of absolutely no consequence whatsoever? A difference of philosophy - is that the basis from which a city manager is to be..uh... dismissed? You know, there is an old cliche. that I've used time and time again: We may disagree but we don't have to be disagreeable. If we all fought alike, we would end up a bunch of mechancial robots. There must be differences of opinion for progress but to have that as a basis for terminating... the most capable city manager that this city has ever had ... in the short period of time that he's been with us..I think since last late August or early September. We have seen a true professional at work who has brought extreme, positive achievements to this city..under very tiring, trying circumstances ... and this is what we are asked to do: Terminate one of the best things that has ever happened to the city. I am opposed to it ... I think it is very wrong..uh..I..I..I can't go into the legality I of it,..uh..Mr. City Attorney..I'll... I'll let ... let you handle that part of it..But as far as I'm concerned, the way it was -3- 7/5/85 /vdw J brought about .... with no charges whatsoever in the memorandum... We have no backup information. We have nothing specific to go by. I'm sure that there are some rights that the City Manager has, Mr. City Attorney. I'm sure that there could be some basis ... some smell, let's put it ... to the actual memorandum which created this meeting ... And I ask a question: Is this a valid, legal meeting? Forgetting about the item that we're discussing: Is it a valid, legal meeting... based on the procedures that we are obligated to follow under our Charter in the manner in which special meetings are called... V/M MASSARO: Uh..I would ask that uh... the City Attorney respond to the legality of the action taken here this morning. MR. HENNING: There are certain aspects that go into play uh... in considering the legality of calling a meeting. Uh..I was with the Mayor, in his office, uh..discussing other business.. on..Wednesday, when..er..he received the memo from C/M Gottesman requesting this uh..meeting. We discussed the fact that the Charter requires 12 hours' notice for a special meeting ... and that was..uh..accomplished. We discussed the fact as to whether or not the request was legal or any violation of the Sunshine Law by him asking for the meeting; I don't find any —thing illegal about the way the meeting was asked for. I discussed, individually, with uh..C/M Gottesman and Coun..and the Mayor.. uh..the possibility of being more specific in the —notice because, as you know, each notice indicates that if a person decides to appeal the decision uh..that the..City..made by the City Council with respect to any matter considered at such meetin or hearing, he will need a record of the proceeding for such purpose, etc.; this is a statutory requirement that goes on each notice..uh... I would say that the uh... that the... specificity of the notice is the only area that concerns me... and, at best, borderline... depending on the action of Council... uh... I am not legally comfortable with taking the finality.... the action of this type of finality —with the vagueness of the mo... of the notice. C/M MUNITZ: In other words, it is your opinion that there is a possibility that this is an illegal meeting; is that what you're saying? MR. HENNING: If there is a legal problem, it is with the... the specificity of the notice. The notice is timely; the notice went out properly —but in all candor it is vague. C/M MUNITZ: If I may, Madam Chairman, you mentioned the... V/M MASSARO: If you will, please, just a moment. C/M MUNITZ: I just want to get one part of his statement... V/M MASSARO: Of whose statement? C/M MUNITZ: The City Attorney's. V/M MASSARO: All right. C/M MUNITZ: You mentioned the 12-hour notice requirement... Yesterday was a holiday ... When does the clock stop ticking for a 12-hour notice, and how are the notices given? By telephone calls to us? I mean, there ... there —there is something here that just doesn't smell right. MAN 7/5/85 /vdw �J MR. HENNING: The notice was given uh...the Mayor gave the notice to uh..requested the Clerk ... The notice went out at approximately..uh..two or three o'clock on..uh... Wednesday.. and uh... V/M MASSARO: Went out in what manner, please? MR. HENNING: All right. It was typed ... and I know that... I ... I have notes here ... that at 2:30 I had a discussion with the..uh... with the City Clerk... regarding the specificity of the notice so the notice had gone out by 2:30 on Wednesday... The Mayor was aware of it because he was in the building; Mr. Gottesman was aware of it because he was in the building. I don't recall how the Vice Mayor got notice of it and I would have to def..defer to the Clerk..I assume that phone calls were made to the homes of the other Council members ... And I also noticed, by the way, that a notice was posted on the front door of City Hall, glass door, that there was... C/M MUNTTZ: Wasn't City Hall closed yesterday? MR. HENNING: Well, on Wednesday even, it was posted there. C/M MUNITZ: Well, I would hardly feel that the ... date of a holiday... MR. HENNING: I... C/M MUNITZ: could be used as a number of hours necessary... V/M MASSARO: Yes, it can... C/M MUNITZ: to call a meeting. MR. HENNING: Well, I ... I..I disagree with you in that sense. I find nothing wrong with the legality of the timing, the form the notice going out ... the way it was called, I see nothing wrong with that except the actual text of the notice. -I'm uncomfortable with the specificity of the text of the notice. That's all I find fault with. V/M MASSARO: Uh..You... Mr..Henning.... you find a problem with the specificity of the notice ... Are you saying that... regarding of what further information uh..the maker of this uh... action..uh..might bring forth this morning that uh... the..notice, itself, is questionable? If he were to ... give his reasons now ... because I ... I've been waiting to hear something more ... If he were to give his reasons..this morning for his action, ... uh..does that cure the doubts that you have? MR. HENNING: All right. There's a couple of points here: First of all, the uh..the initial resolution which is Resolution 84-283, which was effective 9/14/84, which was the appointment to the city manager uh..discuss severance, Section 1d, "Severance after the probationary period has' been successfully completed", which, by the way, it has, "if the city manager is discharged by the City Council without cause, he shall be entitled to the following severance pay in addition to the payment of accrued leave as provided by..in the personnel manual which shall be the complete liquidated damages against the city". And in this instance within the first year after probation has been completed, four (4) weeks salary at the latest rate which would be severance pay for discharge without charge. If there was discharge with cause,..then he would not be -5- 7/5/85 /vdw J necessarily..he would not be entitled to the severance Pay if Council did not specifically elect for that...uh... If he is discharged for cause, there are provisions in the City Charter —which discuss..uh..the right of a hearing before suspension or discharge take effect. So he would have a right to a hearing if he elects for a hearing... before the enactment of the..uh... of the actual suspension or dismissal if Council goes that route... V/M MASSARO: Uh..I'm not quite clear on uh... what you just said..uh... Do you consider the notice that has been given that you're questioning ... uh..do you call this with or without cause? MR. HENNING: Well, so far I... V/M MASSARO: According... MR. HENNING: I've heard it ..... I would have to go back to the phrase..if you're saying because there's a..uh..in the C/M MUNITZ: Difference in philosophy... MR. HENNING: in management..uh... philosophy.. V/M MASSARO: I beg your pardon ... Just let me finish with him.. MR. HENNING: uh..I haven't been asked this before but I tend to think that'd ':)e without cause and it would go under the resolution. I think that would go under the resolution. V/M MASSARO: Okay. According to the record, then ... uh... there is no reason why..uh..he could not be suspended.. without cause...accordi_ng to what you just read? There's very clear procedure for that? Is that correct? MR. HENNING: Yes. V/M MASSARO: Okay, then what is wrong ... Let's go back to the notice. I'm just trying to get things cleared up. What is wrong with the notice, then? ... If you can suspend without cause? MR. HENNING: Well,... C/M STEIN: I... V/M MASSARO: Just one minute, let..Iet... C/M STEIN: Well, that's my objection; I'm raising objections which I would like to put on record. V/M MASSARO: Objections to what, please? C/M STEIN: All right, to the notice. I was coming to that... V/M MASSARO: Hold —Hold everything; I want an answer from our City Attorney. C/M STEIN: All right. MR. HENNING: Originally, the notice was suggested to be regardi the status of the City Manager ... and that was uh turned down... uh..by the Mayor. And then because —and very frankly because.. won %/5/85 /vdw J there was nothing in the memo from Mr. Gottesman and, to my knowledge, there was no discussion between Mr. Gottesman and the Mayor on this..I was there when the memo came in and we looked at the memo together..uh.. The —The notice as it stands today is verbatim from the memo that Mr. Gottesman uh put in and that's why the Mayor seemed steadfast to stick with that language because that's all he was given from C/M Gottesman. I had —But the suggestion had been regarding the status of the City Manager that was th..that was turned down; next, was regarding the discipline action to be taken against the City Manager.. which I felt was even more specific notice to the City Manager —and that was turned down by uh..C/M Gottesman, and then, in turn by the Mayor since Gottes... since C/M Gottesman did not go along with it..uh..so we left it... vague because uh I had no indication of what specific action was going to be proposed today. Now, getting back here .... the purpose of the Sunshine Law,..which is why we give notices, is to give the interested party —notice of the business at hand in case they wish to present uh... present any information or be prepared to respond or whatever. Let me say this: that uh..in light of the conditions of the —resolution, which provided for dismissal without cause, it's conceivable that —the uh the meeting would be valid... and —and also we need to know whether or not..uh Mr. Johnson is objecting to the notice, whether or not he's prepared since this obviously affects him. But we haven't heard any objection and uh possibly he's waiving any objection to the notice but —since you are entitled to ... go without cause... V/M MASSARO: Are you saying that's a legal opinion of yours that we can..uh move forward without cause and that the notice is legal? MR. HENNING: Well, I would...I would say, yes. The notice is legal, although vague, I think it would be legal if you go with no cause because there's nothing to defend if there's no cause. If there's any charges made,... certainly, Mr. Johnson has..you know, has to shade some light on whether or not uh he has been ... or the other Council members, frankly; Mr. Stein raised an interesting point, too, as to whether or not he is prepared to vote so I would leave it to the panel here - the six of you, including the City Manager, as to whether or not there's an objection to the notice. On its face, it's vague —but I would say that it meets the minimum legal requirements. It's not the way I would have drafted it.... V/M MASSARO: That's not the question what you would do. MR. HENNING: but it is..it is minimum. I understand that. It is the..It will meet the minimum... legal requirements subject to the objections that might be heard. C/M MUNITZ: I'd like to follow that up, if I may? V/M MASSARO: Not yet, please. The City Manager wanted to ask a question. Mr..Johnson? MR. JOHNSON: Madam Vice Mayor, uh..under the Charter... under Section 5 paragraph..subparagraph b it gives the City Manager rights without any —whether the resolution says different or not ... of a hearing...If the Council goes ahead with the motion -7- 7/5/85 /vdw J Y that has been proposed this morning —and there is allegations in that proposal ... I would request, at this period and time, that I have the right of a public hearing under the basis of the Charter and I demand those rights. V/M MASSARO: You're... You're demanding a hearing? MR. JOHNSON: Yes, ma'am. V/M MASSARO: Okay. I see nothing wrong with that but uh.. Now, let me see, Mr..uh..C/M Stein. Now, please, C/M Stein. C/M STEIN: I... V/M MASSARO: Before you speak, Councilman. Mr. Mayor, would you like the gavel back? (V/M Massaro passes gavel to Mayor Kravitz.) MAYOR KRAVITZ: Councilman Stein. C/M STEIN: I'd like to put on the record that I raised an objection to the notice; I did that originally. I don't think that's proper notice to anybody sitting... maybe to the Mayor and to....C/M Gottesman since they knew what was going on... but I don't know how anybody in their right mind would know exactly what was going to happen here today... whether there were charges to be brought against the City Manager —whether there were not charges ... I think we're entitled ... by our positions sitting up here...to digest the charges made by C/M Gottesman. It is not just without cause ... His allegation is that there is a severe difference.... between what he says is the policy of the city and what the manager says. Now, I think we should have the right to digest that charge; whether it's just in the head of C/M Gottesman and the Mayor or in the head of everybody; we might agree with it, I don't know. But I'd like to digest what these charges are. Now, it's true ... that our City Attorney says that it doesn't make any difference because we're firing him without.... without cause... However, we are still firing him based upon this difference —of philosophy... That's the charge that was made. I'd like to know what difference in philosophy, what he's talking about and what our City Manager has done ... to impugn the..the ood name of this city..is that ... or as some people have said!.he's probably the best city manager this city has ever had; I think so...and that is not important but I don't want to come here Friday in the morning and be faced with the charge to vote to fire the city manager; I'd like to know what the heck is going on so I could know —and now that the city manager has asked for a hearing ... I would like to ask in a]_1 fairness...that we do not vote ... until we hear the city manager's side and C/M Gottesman's charges that he has and then make our decision. MAYOR KRAVITZ: C/M Stein, number one, we have a motion on the floor.... C/M STEIN: I'm moving to table. MAYOR KRAVITZ: All right, before I ask again for a motion to table ... if that's your desire, I think we ought to get the record cleared up because you mentioned two or three times that "only C/M Gottesman and the Mayor knew what's going on", as usual, you're incorrect.... We did not know what's going on; a request was sent out..by C/M Gottesman -3- asking for a special meeting ... And you will make certain remarks all the time without knowledge and without knowing what it's all about but you'll make those. I don't think that's germaine to this issue at the present time so I won't go into that but I want it on the record that at no time did I speak to C/M Gottesman or the Vice Mayor or any other Councilman in this city in reference to this item. And you keep saying over and over again that only two knew about it, that is not true. As usual, you will make those innuendoes. At this time, I'm going to call on Councilman Gottesman who had his hand up. C/M STEIN: I made a motion to table which is.... MAYOR KRAVITZ: I haven't called on you for that motion yet, Councilman. Go ahead (to C/M Gottesman). V/M MASSARO: I don't.. Mr..uh... Mayor, I think you have a... a matter of procedure here uh... a motion for tabling uh..does... take... MAYOR KRAVITZ; When it's called on, yes... V/M MASSARO: No, I.... C/M STEIN: No, no, no, Mr. Mayor... C/M MUNITZ: No, no.. MAYOR KRAVITZ: All right. Let C/M Gottesman speak, and then you'll be able to make your motion. C/M GOTTESMAN: In answer to the question why I did not in my request for this special meeting... mention any... reasons or causes ... it was simply because I wanted a meeting and I knew the next day was a day in which I could mull over the various options that are available to this Council ... I decided on the option that I've read to you this morning ... on a'move to terminate, and again I will repeat that the reason I gave is that there is a real and nonproductive difference in management philosophy which currently exists between the incumbent city manager and, I believe, with this City Council. Obviously, there's going to be objections... and also correction... There'd be objections and also people that will agree with my motion... MEMBER OF THE AUDIENCE: And disagree as well. C/M GOTTESMAN: I just said that you don't have to ra... you don't have to call out.. MAYOR KRAVITZ: All right. (Mayor raps gavel.) Let's not get into discussion. C/M GOTTESMAN: No, I don't wish to but let's keep it orderly. MAYOR KRAVITZ: Are you finished, Councilman? C/M GOTTESMAN: Dignified... Thank you. --�. MAYOR KRAVITZ: C/M Stein, did you want to make a motion? C/M STEIN: I MOVE that we table this matter to our regular Council meeting this coming Wednesday. C/M MUNITZ: I'll second that motion. 7/5/B5 /vdw MAYOR KRAVITZ: Well, we have a motion and a second, call the question... To table... VOTE: C/M STEIN AYE C/M MUNITZ: You know, an interesting aspect here is.... MAYOR KRAVITZ: Yes or no, Councilman.. V/M MASSARO: You can not.... C/M MUNITZ AYE C/M GOTTESMAN NAY V/M MASSARO NAY MAYOR KRAVITZ NAY MAYOR KRAVITZ: And, therefore, this motion will continue on. Is there any further discussion on the original motion? C/M MUNITZ: I'd like... MAYOR KRAVITZ: C/M Munitz. C/M MUNITZ: I'd like to pursue the question of possible violation of the Sunshine Law, Mr. City Attorney. You mentioned that the purpose ... of the Sunshine Law is to make certain that proper notice is given to ... Excuse me, people who might be interested parties. Certainly, the... fact that yesterday was a holiday, no one was available except by telephone calls, I..I really feel that this should be a matter that the Charter Board ... is obligated to follow up as to whether or not there were actual, possible violations of the Sunshine Law and the way this matter came about ... Here is a matter that ... you say there was a notice put on the bulletin board. City Hall was closed yesterday. V/M MASSARO: He didn't say that.. MR. HENNING: I said there was a notice.... V/M MASSARO: He didn't say that. MR. HENNING: on Wednesday... during the day... There was a notice taped to... C/M MUNITZ: At what time during the day? MR. HENNING: All right. Let me reiterate. I discussed with you the fact that I was on uh..I was working on... working with the Clerk and talking with the Clerk about the notice on Wednesday. I had a proposal to change the notice at 2:30 on Wednesday so the notice was done by 2:30 on Wednesday... because I was asking to revise it so obviously it was already done ... The notice was taped to the inside of the glass door at City Hall, front door, facing out so that whoever walked in from the parking lot could see the notice that there would be a meeting today..uh... V/M MASSARO: Were t'.ie press notified? MR. HENNING: I'm sure that the press was notified, and, obviously, they're here uh..uh..Council, I...I'm not taking a position on what you do —believe me ... but, you know, in light of the Mayor's comments, that he was not aware ... what this meeting is all about ... and C/M Gottesman's comments that -io- 7/5/85 /vdw i he was still deciding ... Thursday —what this meeting is about ... uh and, in light of the notice, I am very un- comfortable with taking final action today with this notice..Now, if..you know, I can't tell you how a judge'll rule or..you know, but I can only advise you —it —it.. there is a vagueness here. I am not concerned with the Sunshine Law as far as two Council members talking to each other; I'm not concerned with proper notice to the Council; there was 12 hours' notice as required... I'm not concerned with posting; I think it was posted properly. I think the press was called. I think the people are here as an indication that there was a notice. I've no problem with that ... I am.. professionally uncomfortable with —the text of the notice. C/M MUNITZ: But you won't go so far as to declare it invalid because of the co..uh..text of the notice? MR. HENNING: That ... That's not for me to judge; I'm not the judge. I'm a ... I give legal opinions and I'm.... C/M MUNITZ: You're the one whose legal opinion we rely upon. V/M MASSARO: Mr. Henning ... No.. MAYOR KRAVITZ: Vice Mayor. V/M MASSARO: I don't quite understand any of this ... because you read a resolution which very clearly states that uh... you can suspend without any uh..reason... C/M GOTTESMAN: Without cause. V/M MASSARO: without cause. MR. HENNING: Correct. V/M MASSARO: I don't know what we're talking about then that uh that uh a person can't think anymore ... or can't review in their mind..That... That —That changes something. If it's without cause, it's without cause..I..I just don't understand it ... And ... there is a motion on the floor, I would like to amend that motion to this extent ... that the.. City Manager, if, he is ... if it is voted to suspend him that he does have the privilege of a hearing as per his request and some point and time ... But that doesn't necessarily have to affect his suspension at the present time. You tell me, Mr. Henning, how that would work... MR. HENNING: All right. There is either a suspension which is not a dismissal; it's a..presumably disciplinary action... V/M MASSARO: Okay. You ... Okay, there is a difference... MR. HENNING: in which, he uh..you know, 5, 10 - 15 days whatever you say, without pay uh..or there is a dismissal which is a different action which is termination of employment. V/M MASSARO: Okay. Ours is..Our motion... MR. HENNING: and the Charter says.... V/M MASSARO: Forgive me, one second. Our motion that's on the floor ... what is the motion before us?... -11- 7/5/85 /vdw V/ MR. HENNING: To fire him... V/M MASSARO: On the floor... MR. HENNING: To terminate him. V/M MASSARO: All right. To terminate. Okay. Let ... That clears that up... MR. HENNING: Okay. V/M MASSARO: But in either case, this motion now is to terminate. Tell me how it applies to that. MR. HENNING: How what applies? V/M MASSARO: The privilege for a hearing. MR. HENNING: Well, the .... the City Manager is asking for a hearing... it V/M MASSARO: Prior ... It says.... MR. HENNING: Prior to the effectiveness.... it V/M MASSARO: prior to suspension or removal. MR. HENNING: Correct. V/M MASSARO: And that's... that's MR. HENNING: The Charter. V/M MASSARO: the char-er. MR. HENNING: Correct. II V/M MASSARO: Okay... MR. HENNING: Uh... V/M MASSARO: Prior... MR. HENNING: That means that before he ... cleans out his desk and picks uo his check, that he has a right to make a presentation t_1at he would work with pay or..or be re- lieved with pay -ah unt_4_1 the hearing could take place and the Council could uh hear both sides and vote on it. Now, if Council desires not to present any evidence at all and just say that you're resting on the resolution without cause, uh.., you know, theoretically, you could do that, too. V/M MASSARO: Well, that's what's been submitted so :Far... MR. HENNING: I understand that.... V/M MASSARO: I haven't heard anything different... MR. HENNING: I understand tl-,at... He is... V/M MASSARO: Now does ... does that still require a..a hearing... MR. HENNING: A hear-_nr...The question is whether or not the -1_2- 7/5/05 /vdw C/M MUNITZ: I'd like to amend the motion to.... V/M MASSARO: I already did.. C/M STEIN: She already added one amendment... V/M MASSARO: Asked for.... MR. HENNTNG: What you were asking is how that affects your motion, there'd be a motion on the table to..uh.. on the floor, actually, a motion to uh..to dismiss the City Manager —affording him the rights of a hearing... V/M MASSARO: That... That... Affording him the rights of a hearing is the thing that I would like to add to the motion that's on the floor. C/M MUNITZ: I want to extend that by saying that no action shall be taken by the Council until after the meeting... after the hearing... C/M STEIN: That's what the Charter says MR. HENNING: Obviously, any action as far as dismissing him..as far as taking away his paycheck or suspending him... would be uh after and subject to the hearing. C/M MUNITZ: In other words, any action we take now couldn't ...would not be effective until after the hearing? V/M MASSARO: No... C/M STEIN: That's what the Charter says. C/M MUNITZ: Well, I just wanted to make sure. MAYOR KRAVITZ: Uh C/M Gottesman, you had your hand up... Let's go in order here; we're going in circles. C/M GOTTESMAN: The resolution.... V/M MASSARO: T think..'J:on should uh..I think..�Jon should answer that legal question... C/M GOTTESMAN: or ...,Ton can answer this. The'resolution' .is very specific... that... the manager can be terminated and it lays out the ground rules and I believe I've adhered to them. There are no specific charges. I think it's a question, as I've stated. And I think on that point it ,doesn't require a hearing and it also supercedes the Charter because in effect... C/M STEIN: A resolution can't supersede the Charter... V/M MASSARO: No. C/M GOTTESMAN: All right. I know we have a lot of lawyers in the audience. If you wish to be heard, I think there's a method of being heard (addressing members of the audience). But I feel that I have followed the resolution and this is the resolution uh rather my motion is a motion asking that the City Manager be terminated and I think it was clearly stated in the resolution why ... It's without cause. it MAYOR KRAVITZ: Vice Mayor, do you want to finalize your... -14- 7/5/85 /vdw V/M MASSARO: Yes. MAYOR KRAVITZ: your motion? V/M MASSARO: Yes, I do want to finalize it and I want Mr. Henning to do that for us ... I would like to know the ... exactly what the procedures are. The motion are.. is to terminate. Our Charter says that he's entitled to a hearing which he..which the City Manager has requested. Can it ... the termination be effected subject to the hearing and a specific date or something —what ... how can this be done... MR.HENNING: Okay.. V/M MASSARO: for the notion to be proper and give the City Manager whatever rights he is entitled to under our Charter because in no way do we want to circumvent that. MR. HENNING: When... How soon do you want to have a public hearing? Do you want to have a hearing at Wednesday's meeting? When do you want to have a hearing? MAYOR KRAVITZ: No, we can't have it at Wednesday's meeting. It's got to either be prior or after but you can't have it on Wednesday. MR. HENNING: When ... When do you want to have a hearing and.. I ... what I'm saying is ... that you determine the date that you want to have the hearing, you make a motion that uh unless action is taken to the contrary at the public hearing that he would be dismissed as of the public hearing and then you also have to realize or determine that he uh is to receive his paycheck until the public hearing and you could ask him not to come in if you want to give him leave or you could ask him to carry on with his duties until the hearing,. But I don'C... I'm advising you not to change his pay status until the public hearing and if you tell me when your public hearing is, we can... MAYOR KRAVITZ: Can we... V/M MASSARO: Tomorrow. MAYOR KRAVITZ: Can we have our public hearing now? ... Is he ready to speak to us now? MR. HENNING: He'd have to answer that. MR. JOHNSON: No, sir. I have to talk to my attorney, Mr. Mayor,... V/M MASSARO: Tomorrow. MR. JOHNSON: and I'll let you know. V/M MASSARO: Tomorrow. MR. JOHNSON: Tomorrow or Monday? MR. HENNING: Tomorrow's Saturday. -15- 7/5/85 /vdw 11 V/M MASSARO: Oh, tomorrow's Sat ... Gosh, this holiday's got me confused. MAYOR KRAVITZ: Uh..If we talk about Monday, would that be satisfactory? MR. JOHNSON: Mr. Mayor, in my opinion, to prepare a response to the uh... I think there are charges that C/M Gottesman made... I would need time to talk to my attorney and prepare a response. I would appreciate it if it was no late —earlier than Tuesday or Thursday, Mr. Mayor. V/M MASSARO: Mr. Mayor ... I..I would suggest that we go along with the Tuesday date ... and that uh..in..in the motion that the City Manager be relieved of his duties..with pay until the public hearing. MAYOR KRAVITZ: First of all, let me ask the maker of the motion if he'll accept the amendment. C/M GOTTESMAN: I ... I have two questions since —we have so many ... so much legal talent around ... There is a motion on... the floor right now that has been seconded ... Do we pursue a roll call on that motion... MAYOR KRAVITZ: Uh..We have an amendment... MR. HENNING: There's been a request.... C/M GOTTESMAN: They're asking for an amendment. MAYOR KRAVITZ: The amendment would come first. C/M GOTTESMAN: The amendment would come first. MAYOR KRAVITZ: If it's defeated, then, you go back to the original motion.. V/M MASSARO: Mr. Mayor, it's... MAYOR KRAVITZ: if it passes..... V/M MASSARO: foolhardy not to address the amendment properly. We have a charter; we must abide by our charter.... C/M GOTTESMAN: All right. V/M MASSARO: no matter what we think. C/M GOTTESMAN: I'm not ... I'm not trying to avoid the charter; I just... V/M MASSARO: I just want to make sure that that's clear.... C/M GOTTESMAN: I'd like to point out that Tuesday morning... this hall is occupied ... by a... MR. HENNING: Board of Adjustments. C/M GOTTESMAN: Board of Adjustments. V/M MASSARO: They can meet upstairs. C/M GOTTESMAN: All right. Fine, if that's possible, and, then, Tuesday afternoon.... MAYOR KRAVITZ: Would you accept that for Tuesday morning here? C/M GOTTESMAN: Yes, I have no reason not to accept it. -16- 7/5/85 /vdw MAYOR KRAVITZ: All right ... uh... MR. HENNING: Can you give us a specific time? MAYOR KRAVITZ: Pardon me? MR. HENNING: Can you give us a specific time? 10...8.. MAYOR KRAVITZ: I wish I had my calendar... MR. HENNING: Do you want to take a recess and get.... Tape V/M MASSARO: Don't you think we should vote on it first and 2 then set a time? MR. HENNING: Well, let's say Tues..I... MAYOR KRAVITZ: It'll be Tuesday; I'll set the time... MR. HENNING: Sometime Tuesday, you can set the time... MAYOR KRAVITZ: when I get back up in my office.... MR. HENNING: today. MAYOR KRAVITZ: Now, you accept the amendment.... C/M GOTTESMAN: Tuesday afternoon we have a workshop, too.... Mr. Mayor. MAYOR KRAVITZ: Yes, I know that .... We have to.... C/M STEIN: I'd appreciate it, Mr. Mayor, if you could make it 9 o'clock on Tuesday morning. V/M MASSARO: I think it's a good time. MAYOR KRAVITZ: I don't know what my calendar... C/M STEIN: I said — I said..I didn't say that, I said I'd... appreciate it if you could. MAYOR KRAVITZ: I just mentioned to the City Attorney I'd have to check my calendar to see what it looks like ... I know I have several appointments —and see if I can get it in — uh....The maker of the motion accepted the amendment and from what I understand —we will have a hearing on Tuesday —sometime ... and I will set the time when I get back upstairs ... and now if the seconder will accept the amendment, too, so we will be voting on the amendment at this time ... Is that correct, City Attorney? Let's get that clear. MR. HENNING: All right. You want to vote on amending the motion... MAYOR KRAVITZ: Right, that we meet on... MR. HENNING: to have a meeting on Tuesday for ... there'll be a hearing uh pursuant to the charter regarding the dismissal of the City Manager —if the motion passes to dismiss. MAYOR KRAVITZ: Naturally. -17- 7/5/85 /Vdw MR. HENNING: The mot...The vote is on the amendment only at this time. MAYOR KRAVITZ: If we vote on it, then, am I clear that the City Manager is dismissed at this time but he's... MR. HENNING: That's not what you're saying... MAYOR KRAVITZ: What are we saying... MR. HENNING: You're —You're —You... MAYOR KRAVITZ: let's get that clear. MR. HENNING: You are suggesting, at this time, which is fine,... you're suggesting a motion...a vote on the amendment... This is strictly a vote..or you can..you can vote on the whole thing. C/M STEIN: That's what Helen did. MR. HENNING: Fine. C/M STEIN: She said she want ... She wanted him not to work... during this time; he's to get paid during this time but not to work until the hearing.... MR. HENNING: Okay, but uh..uh..the maker of the motion is... agreeing or not to... MAYOR KRAVITZ: He has agreed. MR. HENNING: the..to the amendment. MAYOR KRAVITZ: He has agreed. V/M MASSARO: I have to correct my amendment. MAYOR KRAVITZ: Go ahead. V/M MASSARO: because the Charter says he can't be suspended or... C/M GOTTESMAN: Removed prior to... V/M MASSARO: removed prior to the hearing. Can we..and still be in uh..uh..in line with the Charter, can we relieve him of any duties..with pay until..the..because you..you can not suspend him. MR. HENNING: Yes..No... V/M MASSARO: I know but it's... MR. HENNING: No, I'm sorry; suspension is no pay..uh..Admini- strative leave or relieved of his duties ... but you don't take his paycheck... C/M STEIN: Why don't we say administrative leave until the hearing? MR. HENNING: You can r.elease'him of his duties or.... V'/M MASSARO: Okay, I just don't want the wrong words in there... I want to correct my amendment... MR. HENNING: All right. Now, what I'm hearing... MAYOR KRAVITZ: Now, let's get it right... 7/5/85 /vdw C/M GOTTESMAN: Well, I don't understand... MR. HENNING: Now what I'm hearing ... Let me repeat it..is a motion to relieve the City Manager of his duties until a hearing on Tuesday the..uh 9th, is it? C/M GOTTESMAN: 9th. MR. HENNING: 9th of July uh..at which time a public hearing will be held regarding his dismissal... C/M STEIN: And action taken on... MR. HENNING: and action taken at that time ... at that time. MAYOR KRAVITZ: Is that what you want, Vice Mayor? V/M MASSARO: Mayor,..uh..absolutely... That's right ... That's correct. C/M GOTTESMAN: That would be a public hearing... MR. HENNING: It's open to the public but it's not advertised like a zoning hearing. C/M GOTTESMAN: I objected to the words, I mean ... I made the motion but I.... MAYOR KRAVITZ: It's not a public hearing but the public is invited. C/M GOTTESMAN: Oh ... Oh, yes, Always. That's true. MAYOR KRAVITZ: All right. Now... C/M MUNITZ: Will we be given an opportunity to speak? C/M GOTTESMAN: What is that? MAYOR KRAVITZ: We will see at the meeting. MR. HENNING: All right. Well, let me suggest this at this point ... Well, let's take the vote first. C/M STEIN: All right. Take the roll, first. MR. JOHNSON: Can I ask a question for... clarification?.... MAYOR KRAVITZ: Let me just say again. In order to keep this meeting going in some kind of way that it'll make sense ... not only to the city clerk when this is typed but to me running the chair ... I'm asking that Council please do not speak out of turn and don't make the motions which are on the floor now—uh... City Manager, you want to speak? MR. JOHNSON: Mr. Mayor, uh two points. Uh..One is, can I have uh some time between now and lunch to get some of my personal stuff out of my office ... and the second question is I'd like clarification 'cause the charter does say a public hearing... That's the specific words in the charter... V/M MASSARO: That's alright.. 41 -19- 7/5/85 /vdw MR.,..JOHNSON: and it would not be fair to me if the public is not allowed to speak. MR. HENNING: No ... Excuse me.... MAYOR KRAVITZ: I have one question, Mr. City Attorney, if it's a public hearing, do we vote at a public hearing? MR. HENNING: Absolutely. You can ... You do it at the zoning hearing... V/M MASSARO: Remember that this is without cause... C/M STEIN: Sure, it's a public hearing... V/M MASSARO: It's a public hearing without cause —what are they going to talk about ... so it's a public hearing, Mayor. MR. HENNING: Well, what I'd like to indicate here and we came up with this ... with Mr. Binder situation... and ... I think that both sides... Obviously, the Council has a right to speak and the Council has a right to request specific people to speak —The Council can call witnesses. And Mr. Johnson has the right to speak and Mr. Johnson has the right to ask people to speak... call witnesses... But, if various people in the audience wish to speak but neither side wants to hear them, they're not —recognized as a witness, then I would discourage or say they should not speak... just as..members of the public shouldn't come and speak but if either side ... wants somebody to speak, they should be entitled to call a witness. C/M,--,SI`FIN: That's what we decided.... MAYOR KRAVITZ: C/M Stein, please refrain from discussion... Are=we all clear now on the motion? V/M MASSARO: I am. MAYOR KRAVITZ: City Attorney, would... V/M MASSARO; You're on the amendment, first? MAYOR KRAVITZ: Yes, but before we take... C/M GOTTESMAN: Can I hear that amendment, please. MR. HENNING: I'm sorry. What you all told me a minute ago is that you want to have one vote on the whole thing as amended. C/M STEIN: Right. MR. HENNING: And the motion as amended is to relieve the City Manager of his duties with pay until Tuesday, July 9, 1985 at which time there will be a hearing held in public regarding his dismissal. V/M MASSARO: Okay, that's fine. MAYOR KRAVITZ: All right. Everybody knows now. C/M GOTTESMAN: I've heard it now and that's recorded as such... MAYOR KRAVITZ: All right. Call the question. -20- 7/5/85 /vdw VOTE: C/M STEIN AYE C/M MUNITZ NAY C/M GOTTESMAN AYE V/M MASSARO AYE MAYOR KRAVITZ AYE MAYOR KRAVITZ: And 1 will announce sometime this morning... what time on Tuesday... this meeting will be held. It'll be publicized and the City Clerk will issue that memorandum. MR. HENNING: And I assume that ... Let's say that uh..by 2 o'clock in the afternoon the switchboard operator will know the time if anybody wants to call ... the switchboard operator will have that information. And just for the record and to Council this public hearing is being noticed uh..without cause and no grounds have been given other than what comments have been made by Mr. Gottesman so far. MAYOR KRAVITZ: All right. Meeting is adjourned.* *Meeting adjourned at 10:55 a.m. MAYOR ASSIS ANT ITY CLERK This public document was promulgated at a cost of $ (� or $ S per copy to inform the general public and public of iicer�s and employees about recent opinions and considerations by the o Inc,` of the City of Tamarac. -21- CITY OF TAAIAR C AP OVER AT MEETING OF City Cierk 7/5/85 /vdw 41 CITY OF TAMARAC, FLORIDA SPECIAL CITY COUNCIL MEETING JULY 5, 1985 Tape CALL TO ORDER: Mayor Philip B. Kravitz called the meeting 1 to order on Friday, July 5, 1985 at 10:00 A.M. in the Council Chambers. PRESENT: Mayor Philip B. Kravitz Vice Mayor Helen Massaro Councilman Arthur H. Gottesman Councilman Raymond J. Munitz Councilman Sydney M. Stein ALSO PRESENT: City Manager Elly F. Johnson City Attorney Jon M. Henning Diane Williams, Secretary MEDITATION AND PLEDGE OF ALLEGIANCE: Mayor Kravitz called or a Moment of Silent Meditation llowed by the Pledge of Allegiance. 1. Beautification Committee - Discussion and possible action on acceptance of a resignation. SYNOPSIS OF ACTION: Agendized by Consent See page C/M Stein MOVED to Agendize by Consent the acceptance of a resignation by a member of the Beautification Committee and a request that he be reinstated as an alternate. SECONDED by V/M Massaro. VOTE: ALL VOTED AYE 1. Beautification Committee - Discussion and possible action on acceptance of a resignation. SYNOPSIS OF ACTION: ACCEPTED resignation ot Wi=iam Sutter as a regular member of the Beautification Committee and request to be reinstated as an alternate; vacancy announced. Mayor Kravitz reported that he had received a memo from Florence Bochenek, Chairperson of the Beautification Committee, dated July 4, 1985, stating that Bill Sutter has requested that he be removed as a regular member of the Beautification Committee and be reinstated as an alternate. C/M Stein MOVED to accept Bill Sutter's resignation and announce a vacancy for the Beautification Committee. V/M Massaro SECONDED citing a desperate need to have a full member Beautification Committee. VOTE: ALL VOTED AYE Mayor Kravitz said an item will appear on Council's agenda for the next regular meeting,(7/10/85) whereby Council will be given an opportunity to' select a replacement as a regular member of the Committee. He announced that anyone wishing to apply do so between now and Wednesday, July 10, 1985 in order that Council may consider the applications. V/ 2. City Manager - Discussion and possible action regarding t e City Manager. SYNOPSIS OF ACTION: APPROVED motion, AS AMENDED, to relieve the City Manager of his duties, with pay, until July 9, 1985 at 10 A.M. at which time there will be a hearing held in public regarding his dismissal. The City Attorney stipulated that this public hearing is without cause and no grounds have been given other than comments made by C/M Gottesman. Mayor Kravitz noted that it is not a public hearing but the public is invited. The following is a verbatim transcript of Item 2 - City Manager -- Discussion and possible action regarding the City Manager: MAYOR KRAVITZ: Let's move on with our special meeting. C/M Gottesman uh... your memorandum as I have it dated July 3rd requested a Special City Council Meeting for discussion and possible action re: City Manager ... uh... Would you like to... go on that? C/M GOTTESMAN: Thank you, Mayor and all Council members. After considerable thought, I wish to put forth the following motion: "I hereby move that we terminate the employment of the City Manager effective immediately upon its passage due to an existence of a real and nonproductive difference in management philosophy which currently exists between incumbent City Manager and, I believe, of this City Council. I do not believe that it is..that it is in the best interest of this City that the present situation continue in the future. Agree to issue payments of four (4) weeks salary, at the present rate, as severance pay, and, in addition, the payment of accrued leave as provided in the personnel manual which shall be the complete liquidated damages against the City. This is in accordance with the resolution appointing the City Manager". MAYOR KRAVITZ: This is a motion that was made and I'm going to ask Council for a second before we go into discussion. I would like to release my chair, if I may, to the Vice Mayor at this time, and I would like to SECOND that motion.... We now have a motion and a second. I'll open this up for discussion. C/M STEIN: Mr. Mayor? MAYOR KRAVITZ: Councilman Stein. V/M MASSARO: You've released the chair, Mr. Mayor. C/M STEIN: But he wants it back again now. V/M MASSARO: He didn't ask for it. MAYOR KRAVITZ: I'll let ... I'll let her hold it. C/M STEIN: All right ... I am completely flabbergasted at the action of this —and the procedure that has taken place at this moment. From ... his own words, the Mayor said he knew nothing about what this was all about. I didn't know -2- 7/5/85 /vdw anything. I don't know who knew anything about it ... No memorandums was sent to anyone. We're talking about dis- missing ... the chief operating officer of the city —which is a very, very serious situation... Whether C/M Gottesman thinks there is a difference of philosophy, it may be just his difference and the Mayor's as he seconded —the motion; however, I would at least think in the spirit of any fairness... that all members of the Council should have been given the information to deliberate, to digest ... to make up their opinion. To walk in here with no backup, no notion of what's going on and being given motion to dismiss the City Manager, without cause, except a difference of opinion...I think is contrary to the aims of this city and the aims of this Council. I violently object to the entire procedure; I'm not even talking to the validity of any of the charges.. They have nothing to do with what I'm talking about. I'm talking about the procedure as it was done. We have a meeting on Wednesday, a regular meeting,... if C/M Gottesman wanted to make these charges, he should have sent these charges around to the Council so they could have digested it and put it on the agenda for Wednesday. I don't know what the urgency was ... This thing was not publicized... How could it be? No- body even knows what we're talking about. It was done in the midst of the Fourth of July holiday where most people are out of town; there's nobody around, and I think it would be terribly for this Council to take such an act without the public having the right to know what's going on ... and more than that, that we know what's going on and why. Thank you. V/M MASSARO: Is there any further discussion? C/M MUNITZ: Yes. V/M MASSARO: Councilman Munitz. C/M MUNITZ: Thank you. You know, to say that this has come as a shock..is putting it rather mildly ... For the sake of... avoiding redundancy I will not repeat practically every word that C/M Stein has said because everything that he said is absolutely true. It's unbelievable in a democratic... supposedly, democratic city, like the City of Tamarac, operating under the rules and principles of democracy on which this great nation was founded ... and we just celebrated its birthday just yesterday, 209th birthday. Where is Tamarac heading? Are we heading towards a dictatorship? Are we heading where it will be a question of bringing up items of absolutely no consequence whatsoever? A difference of philosophy - is that the basis from which a city manager is to be..uh...dismissed? You know, there is an old clich6 that I've used time and time again: We may disagree but we don't have to be disagreeable. If we all fought alike, we would end up a bunch of mechancial robots. There must be differences of opinion for progress but to have that as a basis for terminating... the most capable city manager that this city has ever had ... in the short period of time that he's been with us..I think since last late August or early September. We have seen a true professional at work who has brought extreme, positive achievements to this city..under very tiring, trying circumstances ... and this is what we are asked to do: Terminate one of the best things that has ever happened to the city. I am opposed to it ... I think it is very wrong..uh..I..I..I can't go into the legality of it,..uh..Mr. City Attorney..I'll... I'll let ... let you handle that part of it..But as far as I'm concerned, the way it was -3- 7/5/85 /vdw J brought about,...with no charges whatsoever in the memorandum... We have no backup information. We have nothing specific to go by. I'm sure that there are some rights that the City Manager has, Mr. City Attorney. I'm sure that there could be some basis ... some smell, let's put it ... to the actual memorandum which created this meeting ... And I ask a question: Is this a valid, legal meeting? Forgetting about the item that we're discussing: Is it a valid, legal meeting... based on the procedures that we are obligated to follow under our Charter in the manner in which special meetings are called... V/M MASSARO: Uh..I would ask that uh...the City Attorney respond to the legality of the action taken here this morning. MR. HENNING: There are certain aspects that go into play uh... in considering the legality of calling a meeting. Uh..I was with the Mayor, in his office, uh..discussing other business.. on..Wednesday, when..er..he received the memo from C/M Gottesman requesting this uh..meeting. We discussed the fact that the Charter requires 12 hours' notice for a special meeting ... and that was..uh..accomplished. We discussed the fact as to whether or not the request was legal or any violation of the Sunshine Law by him asking for the meeting; I don't find any —thing illegal about the way the meeting was asked for. I discussed, individually, with uh..C/M Gottesman and Coun..and the Mayor.. uh..the possibility of being more specific in the —notice because, as you know, each notice indicates that if a person decides to appeal the decision uh..that the..City..made by the City Council with respect to any matter considered at such meetin or hearing, he will need a record of the proceeding for such purpose, etc.; this is a statutory requirement that goes on each notice..uh... I would say that the uh...that the... specificity of the notice is the only area that concerns me... and, at best, borderline... depending on the action of Council... uh... I am not legally comfortable with taking the finality.... the action of this type of finality —with the vagueness of the mo... of the notice. C/M MUNITZ: In other words, it is your opinion that there is a possibility that this is an illegal meeting; is that what you're saying? MR. HENNING: If there is a legal problem, it is with the... the specificity of the notice. The notice is timely; the notice went out properly —but in all candor it is vague. C/M MUNITZ: If I may, Madam Chairman, you mentioned the... V/M MASSARO: If you will, please, just a moment. C/M MUNITZ: I just want to get one part of his statement... V/M MASSARO: Of whose statement? C/M MUNITZ: The City Attorney's. V/M MASSARO: All right. C/M MUNITZ: You mentioned the 12-hour notice requirement... Yesterday was a holiday ... When does the clock stop ticking for a 12-hour notice, and how are the notices given? By telephone calls to us? I mean, there ... there —there is something here that just doesn't smell right. -4- E .._..... _ 7/5/85 /vdw J MR. HENNING: The notice was given uh... the Mayor gave the notice to uh..requested the Clerk ... The notice went out at approximately..uh..two`or three o'clock on..uh... Wednesday.. and uh... V/M MASSARO: Went out in what manner, please? MR. HENNING: All right. It was typed ... and I know that... I ... I have notes here ... that at 2:30 I had a discussion with the..uh... with the City Clerk... regarding the specificity of the notice so the notice had gone out by 2:30 on Wednesday... The Mayor was aware of it because he was in the building; Mr. Gottesman was aware of it because he was in the building. I don't recall how the Vice Mayor got notice of it and I would have to def..defer to the Clerk..I assume that phone calls were made to the homes of the other Council members ... And I also noticed, by the way, that a notice was posted on the front door of City Hall, glass door, that there was... C/M MUNITZ: Wasn't City Hall closed yesterday? MR. HENNING: Well, on Wednesday even, it was posted there. C/M MUNITZ: Well, I would hardly feel that the ... date of a holiday... MR. HENNING: I... C/M MUNITZ: could be used as a number of hours necessary... V/M MASSARO: Yes, it can... C/M MUNITZ: to call a meeting. MR. HENNING: Well, I ... I..I disagree with you in that sense. I find nothing wrong with the legality of the timing, the form... the notice going out —the way it was called, I see nothing wrong with that except the actual text of the notice..I'm uncomfortable with the specificity of the text of the notice. That's all I find fault with. V/M MASSARO: Uh..You... Mr..Henning,...you find a problem with the specificity of the notice ... Are you saying that... regarding of what further information uh..the maker of this uh... action..uh..might bring forth this morning that uh... the —notice, itself, is questionable? If he were to ... give his reasons now ... because I ... I've been waiting to hear something more ... If he were to give his reasons —this morning for his action,...uh..does that cure the doubts that you have? MR. HENNING: All right. There's a couple of points here: First of all, the uh..the initial resolution which is Resolution 84-283, which was effective 9/14/84, which was the appointment to the city manager uh..discuss severance, Section 1d, "Severance after the probationary period has been successfully completed", which, by the way, it has, "if the city manager is discharged by the City Council without cause, he shall be entitled to the following severance pay in addition to the payment of accrued leave as provided by..in the personnel manual which shall be the complete liquidated damages against the city". And in this instance within the first year after probation has been completed, four (4) weeks salary at the latest rate which would be severance pay for discharge without charge. If there was discharge with cause,..then he would not be -5- 7/5/85 /vdw J necessarily..he would not be entitled to the severance pay if Council did not specifically elect for that ... uh... If he is discharged for cause, there are provisions in the City Charter —which discuss..uh..the right of a hearing before suspension or discharge take effect. So he would have a right to a hearing if he elects for a hearing... before the enactment of the..uh... of the actual suspension or dismissal if Council goes that route... V/M MASSARO: Uh..I'm not quite clear on uh... what you just said..uh... Do you consider the notice that has been given that you,'re questioning ... uh..do you call this with or without cause? 46 MR. HENNING: Well, so far I... V/M MASSARO: According... MR. HENNING: I've heard it.....I would have to go back to the phrase..if you're saying because there's a..uh..in the C/M MUNITZ: Difference in philosophy... MR. HENNING: in management..uh... philosophy.. V/M MASSARO: I beg your pardon ... Just let me finish with him.. MR. HENNING: uh..I haven't been asked this before but I tend to think that'd 'oe without cause and it would go under the resolution. I think that would go under the resolution. V/M MASSARO: Okay. According to the record, then,..uh... there is no reason why..uh..he could not be suspended.. without cause... according to what you just read? There's very clear procedure for that? Is that correct? MR. HENNING: Yes. V/M MASSARO: Okay, then what is wrong ... Let's go back to the notice. I'm just trying to get things cleared up. What is wrong with the notice, then? ... If you can suspend without cause? MR. HENNING: Well,... C/M STEIN: I... V/M MASSARO: Just one minute, let..let... C/M STEIN: Well, that's my objection; I'm raising objections which I would like to put on record. V/M MASSARO: Objections to what, please? C/M STEIN: All right, to the notice. I was coming to that... V/M MASSARO: Hold..Hold everything; I want an answer from our City Attorney. C/M STEIN: All right. MR. HENNING: Originally, the notice was suggested to be regardi the status of the City Manager ... and that was uh turned down... uh..by the Mayor. And then because —and very frankly because.. mail 7/5/85 /vdw J there was nothing in the memo from Mr. Gottesman and, to my knowledge, there was no discussion between Mr. Gottesman and the Mayor on this..I was there when the memo came in and we looked at the memo together..uh.. The —The notice as it stands today is verbatim from the memo that Mr. Gottesman uh put in and that's why the Mayor seemed steadfast to stick with that language because that's all he was given from C/M Gottesman. I had ... But the suggestion had been regarding the status of the City Manager that was th..that was turned down; next, was regarding the discipline action to be taken against the City Manager.. which I felt was even more specific notice to the City Manager —and that was turned down by uh..C/M Gottesman, and then, in turn by the Mayor since Gottes... since C/M Gottesman did not go along with it..uh..so we left it... vague because uh I had no indication of what specific action was going to be proposed today. Now, getting back here,.. -.the purpose of the Sunshine L,aw,..which is why we give notices, is to give the interested party —notice of the business at hand in case they wish to present uh... present any information or be prepared to respond or whatever. Let me say this: that uh..in light of the conditions of the —resolution, which provided for dismissal without cause, it's conceivable that —the uh the meeting would be valid... and —and also we need to know whether or not..uh Mr. Johnson is objecting to the notice, whether or not he's prepared since this obviously affects him. But we haven't heard any objection and uh possibly he's waiving any objection to the notice but —since you are entitled to ... go without cause... V/M MASSARO: Are you saying that's a legal opinion of yours that we can..uh move forward without cause and that the notice is legal? MR. HENNING: Well, I would ... I would say, yes. The notice is legal, although vague, I think it would be legal if you go with no cause because there's nothing to defend if there's no cause. If there's any charges made,... certainly, Mr. Johnson has..you know, has to shade some light on whether or not uh he has been... or the other Council members, frankly; Mr. Stein raised an interesting point, too, as to whether or not he is prepared to vote so I would leave it to the panel here - the six of you, including the City Manager, as to whether or not there's an objection to the notice. On its face, it's vague..but I would say that it meets the minimum legal requirements. It's not the way I would have drafted it.... V/M MASSARO: That's not the question what you would do. MR. HENNING: but it is..it is minimum. I understand that. It is the..It will meet the minimum... legal requirements subject to the objections that might be heard. C/M MUNITZ: I'd like to follow that up, if I may? V/M MASSARO: Not yet, please. The City Manager wanted to ask a question. Mr..Johnson? MR. JOHNSON: Madam Vice Mayor, uh..under the Charter... under Section 5 paragraph..subparagraph b it gives the City Manager t rights without any —whether the resolution says different or not ... of a hearing ... If the Council goes ahead with the motion -7- 7/5/85 /vdw J I a that has been proposed this morning —and there is allegations in that proposal ... I would request, at this period and time, that I have the right of a public hearing under the basis of the Charter and I demand those rights. V/M MASSARO: You're... You're demanding a hearing? MR. JOHNSON: Yes, ma'am. V/M MASSARO: Okay. I see nothing wrong with that but uh.. Now, let me see, Mr..uh..C/M Stein. Now, please, C/M Stein. C/M STEIN: I... V/M MASSARO: Before you speak, Councilman. Mr. Mayor, would you like the gavel back? (V/M Massaro passes gavel to Mayor Kravitz.) MAYOR KRAVITZ: Councilman Stein. C/M STEIN: I'd like to put on the record that I raised an objection to the notice; I did that originally. I don't think that's proper notice to anybody sitting... maybe to the Mayor and to.... C/M Gottesman since they knew what was going on... but I don't know how anybody in their right mind would know exactly what was going to happen here today... whether there were charges to be brought against the City Manager —whether there were not charges ... I think we're entitled ... by our positions sitting up here...to digest the charges made by C/M Gottesman. It is not just without cause ... His allegation is that there is a severe difference.... between what he says is the policy of the city and what the manager says. Now, I think we should have the right to digest that charge; whether it's just in the head of C/M Gottesman and the Mayor or in the head of everybody; we might agree with it, I don't know. But I'd like to digest what these charges are. Now, it's true ... that our City Attorney says that it doesn't make any difference because we're firing him without.... without cause... However, we are still firing him based upon this difference —of philosophy... That's the charge that was made. I'd like to know what difference in philosophy, what he's talking about and what our City Manager has done ... to impugn the..the good name of this city..is that ... or as some people have said'.he's probably the best city manager this city has ever had; I think so ... and that is not important but I don't want to come here Friday in the morning and be faced with the charge to vote to fire the city manager; I'd like to know what the heck is going on so I could know —and now that the city manager has asked for a hearing ... I would like to ask in all fairness... that we do not vote...until we hear the city manager's side and C/M Gottesman's charges that he has and then make our decision. MAYOR KRAVITZ: C/M Stein, number one, we have a motion on the floor.... C/M STEIN: I'm moving to table. MAYOR KRAVITZ: All right, before I ask again for a motion to table ... if that's your desire, I think we ought to get the record cleared up because you mentioned two or three times that "only C/M Gottesman and the Mayor knew what's going on", as usual, you're incorrect.... We did not know what's going on; a request was sent out..by C/M Gottesman 199 7/5/85 /vdw is • asking for a special meeting ... And you will make certain remarks all the time without knowledge and without knowing what it's all about but you'll .make those. I don't think that's germaine to this issue at the present time so I won't go into that but I want it on the record that at no time did I speak to C/M Gottesman or the Vice Mayor or any other Councilman in this city in reference to this item. And you keep saying over and over again that only two knew about it, that is not true. As usual, you will make those innuendoes. At this time, I'm going to call on Councilman Gottesman who had his hand up. C/M STEIN: I made a motion to table which is.... MAYOR KRAVITZ: I haven't called on you for that motion yet, Councilman. Go ahead (to C/M Gottesman). V/M MASSARO: I don't.. Mr..uh... Mayor, I think you have a... a matter of procedure here uh... a motion for tabling uh..does... take... MAYOR KRAVITZ; When it's called on, yes... V/M MASSARO: No, I.... C/M STEIN: No, no, no, Mr. Mayor... C/M MUNITZ: No, no.. MAYOR KRAVITZ: All right. Let C/M Gottesman speak, and then you'll be able to make your motion. C/M GOTTESMAN: In answer to the question why I did not in my request for this special meeting... mention any... reasons or causes ... it was simply because I wanted a meeting and I knew the next day was a day in which I could mull over the various options that are available to this Council ... I decided on the option that I've read to you this morning...on a'move to terminate, and again I will repeat that the reason I gave is that there is a real and nonproductive difference in management philosophy which currently exists between the incumbent city manager and, I believe, with this City Council. Obviously, there's going to be objections... and also correction... There'd be objections and also people that will agree with my motion... MEMBER OF THE AUDIENCE: And disagree as well. C/M GOTTESMAN: I just said that you don't have to ra... you don't have to call out.. MAYOR KRAVITZ: All right. (Mayor raps gavel.) Let's not get into discussion. C/M GOTTESMAN: No, I don't wish to but let's keep it orderly. MAYOR KRAVITZ: Are you finished, Councilman? C/M GOTTESMAN: Dignified... Thank you. MAYOR KRAVITZ: C/M Stein, did you want to make a motion? C/M STEIN: I MOVE that we table this matter to our regular Council meeting this coming Wednesday. C/M MUNITZ: I'll second that motion. 7/5/85 /vdw f MAYOR KRAVITZ: Well, we have a motion and a second, call the question ... To table... VOTE: C/M STEIN AYE C/M MUNITZ: You know, an interesting aspect here is.... MAYOR KRAVITZ: Yes or no, Councilman.. V/M MASSARO: You can not.... C/M MUNITZ AYE C/M GOTTESMAN NAY - V/M MASSARO NAY MAYOR KRAVITZ NAY MAYOR KRAVITZ: And, therefore, this motion will continue on. Is there any further discussion on the original motion? C/M MUNITZ: I'd like... MAYOR KRAVITZ: C/M Munitz. C/M MUNITZ: I'd like to pursue the question of possible violation of the Sunshine Law, Mr. City Attorney. You mentioned that the purpose ... of the Sunshine Law is to make certain that proper notice is given to ... Excuse me, people who might be interested parties. Certainly, the... fact that yesterday was a holiday, no one was available except by telephone calls, I..I really feel that this should be a matter that the Charter Board...is obligated to follow up as to whether or not there were actual, possible violations of the Sunshine Law and the way this matter came about ... Here is a matter that ... you say there was a notice put on the bulletin board. City Hall was closed yesterday. V/M MASSARO: He didn't say that.. MR. HENNING: I said there was a notice.... V/M MASSARO: He didn't say that. MR. HENNING: on Wednesday... during the day ... There was a notice taped to... C/M MUNITZ: At what time during the day? MR. HENNING: All right. Let me reiterate. I discussed with you the fact that I was on uh..I was working on... working with the Clerk and talking with the Clerk about the notice on Wednesday. I had a proposal to change the notice at 2:30 on Wednesday so the notice was done by 2:30 on Wednesday... because I was asking to revise it so obviously it was already done ... The notice was taped to the inside of the glass door at City Hall, front door, facing out so that whoever walked in from the parking lot could see the notice that there would be a meeting today..uh... V/M MASSARO: Were t'.ie press notified? MR. HENNING: I'm sure that the press was notified, and, obviously, they're here uh..uh..Council, I ... I'm not taking a position on what you do —believe me ... but, you know, in light of the Mayor's comments, that he was not aware ... what this meeting is all about ... and C/M Gottesman's comments that atoll 7/5/85 /vdw 9' i he was still deciding ... Thursday —what this meeting is about ... uh and, in light of the notice, I am very un- comfortable with taking final action today with this notice..Now, if..you know, I can't tell you how a judge'll rule or..you know, but I can only advise you. -it. -it.. there is a vagueness here. I am not concerned with the Sunshine Law as far as two Council members talking to each other; I'm not concerned with proper notice to the Council; there was 12 hours' notice as required ... I'm not concerned with posting; I think it was posted properly. I think the press was called. I think the people are here as an indication that there was a notice. I've no problem with that ... I am.. professionally uncomfortable with —the text of the notice. C/M MUNITZ: But you won't go so far as to declare it invalid because of the co..uh..text of the notice? MR. HENNING: That ... That's not for me to judge; I'm not the judge. I'm a ... I give legal opinions and I'm.... C/M MUNITZ: You're the one whose legal opinion we rely upon. V/M MASSARO: Mr. Henning ... No.. MAYOR KRAVITZ: Vice Mayor. V/M MASSARO: I don't quite understand any of this ... because you read a resolution which very clearly states that uh... you can suspend without any uh..reason... C/M GOTTESMAN: Without cause. V/M MASSARO: without cause. MR. HENNING: Correct. V/M MASSARO: I don't know what we're talking about then that uh that uh a person can't think anymore ... or can't review in their mind..That... That —That changes something. If it's without cause, it's without cause..I..I just don't understand it ... And ... there is a motion on the floor, I would like to amend that motion to this extent ... that the.. City Manager, if, he is ... if it is voted to suspend him that he does have the privilege of a hearing as per his request and some point and time ... But that doesn't necessarily have to affect his suspension at the present time. You tell me, Mr. Henning, how that would work... MR. HENNING: All right. There is either a suspension which is not a dismissal; it's a..presumably disciplinary action... V/M MASSARO: Okay. You ... Okay, there is a difference... MR. HENNING: in which, he uh.-you know, 5, 10 - 15 days whatever you say, without pay uh..or there is a dismissal which is a different action which is termination of employment. V/M MASSARO: Okay. Ours is..Our motion... MR. HENNING: and the Charter says.... V/M MASSARO: Forgive me, one second. Our motion that's on the floor ... what is the motion before us?... -11- 7/5/85 /vdw MR. HENNING: To fire him... V/M MASSARO: On the floor... MR. HENNING: To terminate him. V/M MASSARO: All right. To terminate. Okay. Let ... That clears that up... MR. HENNING: Okay. V/M MASSARO: But in either case, this motion now is to terminate. Tell me how it applies to that. MR. HENNING: How what applies? V/M MASSARO: The privilege for a hearing. MR. HENNING: Well, the .... the City Manager is asking for a hearing... I I V/M MASSARO: Prior...It says.... MR. HENNING: Prior to the effectiveness.... NI V/M MASSARO: prior to suspension or removal. MR. HENNING: Correct. V/M MASSARO: And that's... that's MR. HENNING: The Charter. V/M MASSARO: the charter. MR. HENNING: Correct. V/M MASSARO: Okay... MR. HENNING: Uh... V/M MASSARO: Prior... MR. HENNING: That means that before he...cleans out his desk and picks uo his check, that he has a right to make a presentation t'zatihe would work'.with pay or..or be re- lieved with pay uh until the hearing could take place and the Council could uh hear both sides and vote on it. Now, if Council desires not to present any evidence at all and just say that you're resting on the resolution without cause, uh.., you know, theoretically, you could do that, too. V/M MASSARO: Well, that's what's been submitted so far... MR. HEN14ING: I understand that.... V/M MASSARO: I haven't heard anything different... MR. HENNING: I understand that ... He is... V/M MASSARO: Now does ... does that still require a..a hearing... MR. HENNING: A hear'_n,...The question is whether or not the -1.2- 7/5/85 /vdw J C/M MUNITZ: I'd like to amend the motion to.... 11 11 V/M MASSARO: I already did.. C/M STEIN: She already added one amendment... V/M MASSARO: Asked for.... MR. HENNING: What you were asking is how that affects your motion, there'd be a motion on the table to..uh.. on the floor, actually, a motion to uh..to dismiss the City Manager... affording him the rights of a hearing... V/M MASSARO: That... That... Affording him the rights of a hearing is the thing that I would like to add to the motion that's on the floor. C/M MUNITZ: I want to extend that by saying that no action shall be taken by the Council until after the meeting... after the hearing... C/M STEIN: That's what the Charter says... MR. HENNING: Obviously, any action as far as dismissing him..as far as taking away his paycheck or suspending him... would be uh after and subject to the hearing. C/M MUNITZ: In other words, any action we take now couldn't ...would not be effective until after the hearing? V/M MASSARO: No... C/M STEIN: That's what the Charter says. C/M MUNITZ: Well, I just wanted to make sure. MAYOR KRAVITZ: Uh C/M Gottesman, you had your hand up... Let's go in order here; we're going in circles. C/M GOTTESMAN: The resolution.... V/M MASSARO: I think... Jonn should uh..I think.,.A-Jbn should answer that legal question... C/M GOTTESMAN: or .uJ'onn can answer this. The re olution::is , very specific... that... the manager can be terminated and it lays out the ground rules and I believe I've adhered to them. There are no specific charges. I think it's a question, as I've stated. And I think on that point it doesn't require a hearing and it also supercedes the Charter because in effect... C/M STEIN: A resolution can't supercede the Charter... V/M MASSARO: No. C/M GOTTESMAN: All right. I know we have a lot of lawyers in the audience. If you wish to be heard, I think there's a method of being heard (addressing members of the audience). But I feel that I have followed the resolution and this is the resolution uh rather my motion is a motion asking that the City Manager be terminated and I think it was clearly stated in the resolution why ... It's without cause. MAYOR KRAVITZ: Vice Mayor, do you want to finalize your... -14- 7/5/85 /vdw 4\, V/M MASSARO: Yes. MAYOR KRAVITZ: your motion? V/M MASSARO: Yes, I do want to finalize it and I want Mr. Henning to do that for us ... I would like to know the ... exactly what the procedures are. The motion are.. is to terminate. Our Charter says that he's entitled. to a hearing which he —which the City Manager has requested. Can it ... the termination be effected subject to the hearing and a specific date or something —what ... how can this be done... MR.HENNING: Okay.. V/M MASSARO: for the motion to be proper and give the City Manager whatever rights he is entitled to under our Charter because in no way do we want to circumvent that. MR. HENNING: When... How soon do you want to have a public hearing? Do you want to have a hearing at Wednesday's meeting? When do you want to have a hearing? MAYOR KRAVITZ: No, we can't have it at Wednesday's meeting. It's got to either be prior or after but you can't have it on Wednesday. MR. HENNING: When ... When do you want to have a hearing and.. I ... what I'm saying is...that you determine the date that you want to have the hearing, you make a motion that uh unless action is taken to the contrary at the public hearing that he would be dismissed as of the public hearing and then you also have to realize or determine that he uh is to receive his paycheck until the public hearing and you could ask him not to come in if you want to give him leave or you could ask him to carry on with his duties until the hearing. But I don't... I'm advising you not to change his pay status until the public hearing and if you tell me when your public hearing is, we can... MAYOR KRAVITZ: Can we... V/M MASSARO: Tomorrow. MAYOR KRAVITZ: Can we have our public hearing now? ... Is he ready to speak to us now? MR. HENNING: He'd have to answer that. MR. JOHNSON: No, sir. I have to talk to my attorney, Mr. Mayor,... V/M MASSARO: Tomorrow. MR. JOHNSON: and I'll let you know. V/M MASSARO: Tomorrow. MR. JOHNSON: Tomorrow or Monday? MR. HENNING: Tomorrow's Saturday. -15- 7/5/85 /vdw V/M MASSARO: Oh, tomorrow's Sat ... Gosh, this holiday's got me confused. MAYOR KRAVITZ: Uh..If we talk about Monday, would that be satisfactory? MR. JOHNSON: Mr. Mayor, in my opinion, to prepare a response to the uh...I think there are charges that C/M Gottesman made... I would need time to talk to my attorney and prepare a response. I would appreciate it if it was no late —earlier than Tuesday or Thursday, Mr. Mayor. V/M MASSARO: Mr. Mayor ... I..I would suggest that we go along with the Tuesday date —and that uh..in..in the motion that the City Manager be relieved of his duties..with pay until the public hearing. MAYOR KRAVITZ: first of all, let me ask the maker of the motion if he'll accept the amendment. C/M GOTTESMAN: I ... I have two questions since —we have so many —so much legal talent around ... There is a motion on... the floor right now that has been seconded ... Do we pursue a roll call on that motion... MAYOR KRAVITZ: Uh..We have an amendment... MR. HENNING: There's been a request.... C/M GOTTESMAN: They're asking for an amendment. MAYOR KRAVITZ: The amendment would come first. C/M GOTTESMAN: The amendment would come first. MAYOR KRAVITZ: If it's defeated, then, you go back to the original motion.. V/M MASSARO: Mr. Mayor, it's... MAYOR KRAVITZ: if it passes..... V/M MASSARO: foolhardy not to address the amendment properly. We have a charter; we must abide by our charter.... C/M GOTTESMAN: All right. V/M MASSARO: no matter what we think. C/M GOTTESMAN: I'm not ... I'm not trying to avoid the charter; I just... V/M MASSARO: I just want to make sure that that's clear.... C/M GOTTESMAN: I'd like to point out that Tuesday morning... this hall is occupied... by a... MR. HENNING: Board of Adjustments. C/M GOTTESMAN: Board of Adjustments. V/M MASSARO: They can meet upstairs. C/M GOTTESMAN: All right. Fine, if that's possible, and, then, Tuesday afternoon.... MAYOR KRAVITZ: Would you accept that for Tuesday morning here? C/M GOTTESMAN: Yes, I have no reason not to accept it. -16 - 7/5/85 /vdw MAYOR KRAVITZ: All right ... uh... MR. HENNING: Can you give us a specific time? MAYOR KRAVITZ: Pardon me? MR. HENNING: Can you give us a specific time? 10...8.. MAYOR KRAVITZ: I wish I had my calendar... MR. HENNING: Do you want to take a recess and get.... Tape V/M MASSARO: Don't you think we should vote on it first and 2 then set a time? MR. HENNING: Well, let's say Tues..I... MAYOR KRAVITZ: It'll be Tuesday; I'll set the time... MR. HENNING: Sometime Tuesday, you can set the time... MAYOR KRAVITZ: when I get back up in my office.... MR. HENNING: today. MAYOR KRAVITZ: Now, you accept the amendment.... C/M GOTTESMAN: Tuesday afternoon we have a workshop, too.... Mr. Mayor. MAYOR KRAVITZ: Yes, I know that .... We have to.... C/M STEIN: I'd appreciate it, Mr. Mayor, if you could make it 9 o'clock on Tuesday morning. V/M MASSARO: I think it's a good time. MAYOR KRAVITZ: I don't know what my calendar... C/M STEIN: I said..I said..I didn't say that, I said I'd... appreciate it if you could. MAYOR KRAVITZ: I just mentioned to the City Attorney I'd have to check my calendar to see what it looks like ... I know I have several appointments —and see if I can get it in..uh.... The maker of the motion accepted the amendment and from what I understand... we will have a hearing on Tuesday... sometime... and I will set the time when I get back upstairs ... and now if the seconder will accept the amendment, too, so we will be voting on the amendment at this time ... Is that correct, City Attorney? Let's get that clear. MR. HENNING: All right. You want to vote on amending the motion... MAYOR KRAVITZ: Right, that we meet on... MR. HENNING: to have a meeting on Tuesday for ... there'll be a hearing uh pursuant to the charter regarding the dismissal of the City Manager..if the motion passes to dismiss. MAYOR KRAVITZ: Naturally. -17- .7/5/85 /vdw �l 1 F� J MR. HENNING: The mot —The vote is on the amendment only at this time. MAYOR KRAVITZ: If we vote on it, then, am I clear that the City Manager is dismissed at this time but he's... MR. HENNING: That's not what you're saying... MAYOR KRAVITZ: What are we saying... MR. HENNING: You're —You're —You... MAYOR KRAVITZ: let's get that clear. MR. HENNING: You are suggesting, at this time, which is fine,... you're suggesting a motion...a vote on the amendment... This is strictly a vote..or you can —you can vote on the whole thing. C/M STEIN: That's what Helen did. MR. HENNING: Fine. C/M STEIN: She said she want ... She wanted him not to work... during this time; he's to get paid during this time but not to work until the hearing.... MR. HENNING: Okay, but uh..uh..the maker of the motion is... agreeing or not to... MAYOR KRAVITZ: He has agreed. MR. HENNING: the —to the amendment. MAYOR KRAVITZ: He has agreed. V/M MASSARO: I have to correct my amendment. MAYOR KRAVITZ: Go ahead. V/M MASSARO: because the Charter says he can't be suspended or... C/M GOTTESMAN: Removed prior to... V/M MASSARO: removed prior to the hearing. Can we..and still be in uh..uh..in line with the Charter, can we relieve him of any duties..with pay until..the..because you. -you can not suspend him. MR. HENNING: Yes..No... V/M MASSARO: I know but it's... MR. HENNING: No, I'm sorry; suspension is no pay..uh..Admini- strative leave or relieved of his duties ... but you don't take his paycheck... C/M STEIN: Why don't we say administrative leave until the hearing? MR. HENNING: You can release'him of his duties or.... V/M MASSARO: Okay, I just don't want the wrong words in there... I want to correct my amendment... MR. HENNING: All right. Now, what I'm hearing... MAYOR KRAVITZ: Now, let's get it right... ow -la 7/5/85 /vdw J C/M GOTTESMAN: Well, I don't understand... MR. HENNING: Now what I'm hearing ... Let me repeat it..is a motion to relieve the City Manager of his duties until a hearing on Tuesday the..uh'9th,'is it? C/M GOTTESMAN: 9th. MR. HENNING: 9th of July uh..at which time a public hearing will be held regarding his dismissal... C/M STEIN: And action taken on... MR. HENNING: and action taken at that time ... at that time. MAYOR KRAVITZ: Is that what you want, Vice Mayor? V/M MASSARO: Mayor,..uh..absolutely...That's right ... That's correct. C/M GOTTESMAN: That would be a public hearing... MR. HENNING: It's open to the public but it's not advertised like a zoning hearing. C/M GOTTESMAN: I objected to the words, I mean ... I made the motion but I.... MAYOR KRAVITZ: It's not a public hearing but the public is invited. C/M GOTTESMAN: Oh ... Oh, yes, Always. That's true. MAYOR KRAVITZ: All right. Now... C/M MUNITZ: Will we be given an opportunity to speak? C/M GOTTESMAN: What is that? MAYOR KRAVITZ: We will see at the meeting. MR. HENNING: All right. Well, let me suggest this at this point ... Well, let's take the vote first. C/M STEIN: All right. Take the roll, first. MR. JOHNSON: Can I ask a question for... clarification?.... MAYOR KRAVITZ: Let me just say again. In order to keep this meeting going in some kind of way that it'll make sense ... not only to the city clerk when this is typed but to me running the chair ... I'm asking that Council please do not speak out of turn and don't make the motions which are on the floor now..uh... City Manager, you want to speak? MR. JOHNSON: Mr. Mayor, uh two points. Uh..One is, can I have uh some time between now and lunch to get some of my personal stuff out of my office ... and the second question is I'd like clarification 'cause the charter does say a public hearing... That's the specific words in the charter... V/M MASSARO: That's alright.. -19- 7/5/85 /vdw 0, 11 MR..:JOHNSON: and it would not be fair to me if the public is not allowed to speak. MR. HENNING: No ... Excuse me.... MAYOR KRAVITZ: I have one question, Mr. City Attorney, if it's a public hearing, do we vote at a public hearing? MR. HENNING: Absolutely. You can ... You do it at the zoning hearing... V/M MASSARO: Remember that this is without cause... C/M STEIN: Sure, it's a public hearing... V/M MASSARO: It's a public hearing without cause..what are they going to talk about ... so it's a public hearing, Mayor. MR. HENNING: Well, what I'd like to indicate here and we came up with this ... with Mr. Binder situation... and ... I think that both sides... Obviously, the Council has a right to speak and the Council has a right to request specific people to speak..The Council can call witnesses. And Mr. Johnson has the right to speak and. Mr. Johnson has the right to ask people to speak... call witnesses... But, if various people in the audience wish to speak but neither side wants to hear them, they're not..recognized as a witness, then I would discourage or say they should not speak... just as. -members of the public shouldn't come and speak but if either side ... wants somebody .to'speak, they should be entitled to call a witness. C/M,S:�FIN: That's what we decided.... M�AYCR KRAVITZ: C/M Stein, please refrain from discussion... A�e:w all clear now on the motion? V[M MASSARO: I am. MAYOR KRAVITZ: City Attorney, would... V/M MASSARO; You're on the amendment, first? MAYOR KRAVITZ: Yes, but before we take... C/M GOTTESMAN: Can I hear that amendment, please. MR. HENNING: I'm sorry. What you all told me a minute ago is that you want to have one vote on the whole thing as amended. C/M STEIN: Right. MR. HENNING: And the motion as amended is to relieve the City Manager of his duties with pay until Tuesday, July 9, 1985 at which time there will be a hearing held in public regarding his dismissal. V/M MASSARO: Okay, that's fine. MAYOR KRAVITZ: All right. Everybody knows now. C/M GOTTESMAN: I've heard it now and that's recorded as such... MAYOR KRAVITZ: All right. Call the question. -20- 7/5/85 /vdw VOTE: C/M STEIN C/M MUNITZ C/M GOTTESMAN V/M MASSARO MAYOR KRAVITZ MAYOR KRAVITZ: And I will announce what time on Tuesday... this meeting publicized and the City Clerk will AYE NAY AYE AYE AYE sometime this morning... will be held. It'll be issue that memorandum. MR. HENNING: And I assume that ... Let's say that uh..by 2 o'clock in the afternoon the switchboard operator will know the time if anybody wants to call ... the switchboard operator will have that information. And just for the record and to Council this public hearing is being noticed uh..without cause and no grounds have been given other than what comments have been made by Mr. Gottesman so far. MAYOR KRAVITZ: All right. Meeting is adjourned.* *Meeting adjourned at 10:55 a.m. ASSISTANT'CITY CLERK This public document was promulgated at a cost o per copy to inform the general public and public about recent opinions and considerations by the the City of Tamarac. _21_ CITY OF TAMA C OVER AT MEETING OF 9 119-5 City Clerk f $� or of icers and employees nc; of 7/5/85 /vdw 8 i L] MAIL. REPLY TO: P.O. BOX 25010 TAMARAC. FLORIDA 33320 5811 NORTHWEST 88TH AVENUE 6 TAMARAC, FLORIDA 33321 TELEPHONE (305) 722-5900 July 3, 1985 NOTICE OF SPECIAL MEETING CITY COUNCIL OF TAMARAC, FLORIDA There will be a Special Meeting of the City Council on Friday, July 5, 1985, at 10:00 a.m., in the Council Chambers of City Hall, 5811 NW 88 Avenue, Tamarac, Florida. The purpose of this meeting is discussion and possible action regarding the City Manager. Carol E. Barbuto Assistant City Clerk Pursuant to Section 286.0105, Florida Statutes tf a person decides to appeal any decision made by the city Council with respect to any matter considered at such meeting or hearing, he will need a record of the proceedings and for such purpose, he may need to ensure that a verbatim record includes the testimony and evidence upon which the appeal is to be based. AN EQUAL OPPORTUNITY EMPLOYER POLICY OF NONDISCRIMINATION ON THE BASIS OF HANDICAPPED STATUS CITY OF TAMARAC, FLORIDA SPECIAL CITY COUNCIL MEETING JULY 5, 1985 Tape CALL TO ORDER: Mayor Philip B. Kravitz called the meeting 1 to order on Friday, July 5, 1985 at 10:00 A.M. in the Council Chambers. PRESENT: Mayor Philip B. Kravitz Vice Mayor Helen Massaro Councilman Arthur H. Gottesman Councilman Raymond J. Munitz Councilman Sydney M. Stein ALSO PRESENT: City Manager Elly F. Johnson City Attorney Jon M. Henning Diane Williams, Secretary MEDITATION AND PLEDGE OF ALLEGIANCE: Mayor Kravitz called or a Moment oT Silent Meditation followed by the Pledge of Allegiance. 1. Beautification Committee - Discussion and possible action on acceptance ot a resignation. SYNOPSIS OF ACTION: Agendized by Consent See page C/M Stein MOVED to Agendize by Consent the acceptance of a resignation by a member of the Beautification Committee and a request that he be reinstated as an alternate. SECONDED by V/M Massaro. 1iLsllM ALL VOTED AYE 1. Beautification Committee - Discussion and possible action on acceptance of a resignation. SYNOPSIS OF ACTION: ACCEPTED resignation of WTMiam Sutter as a regular member of the Beautification Committee and request to be reinstated as an alternate; vacancy announced. Mayor Kravitz reported that he had received a memo from Florence Bochenek, Chairperson of the Beautification Committee, dated July 4, 1985, stating that Bill Sutter has requested that he be removed as a regular member of the Beautification Committee and be reinstated as an alternate. C/M Stein MOVED to accept Bill Sutter's resignation and announce a vacancy for the Beautification Committee. V/M Massaro SECONDED citing a desperate need to have a full member Beautification Committee. VOTE: ALL VOTED AYE Mayor Kravitz said an item will appear on Council's agenda for the next regular meeting (7/10/85) whereby Council will be given an opportunity to' select a replacement as a regular member of the Committee. He announced that anyone wishing to apply do so between now and Wednesday, July 10, 1985 in order that Council may consider the applications. J 2. City Manager - Discussion and possible action regarding the City Manager. SYNOPSIS OF ACTION: APPROVED motion, AS AMENDED, to relieve the City Manager of his duties, with pay, until July 9, 1985 at 10 A.M. at which time there will be a hearing held in public regarding his dismissal. The City Attorney stipulated that this public hearing is without cause and no grounds have been given other than comments made by C/M Gottesman. Mayor Kravitz noted that it is not a public hearing but the public is invited. The following is a verbatim transcript of Item 2 - City Manager — Discussion and possible action regarding the City Manager: MAYOR KRAVITZ: Let's move on with our special meeting. C/M Gottesman uh... your memorandum as I have it dated July 3rd requested a Special City Council Meeting for discussion and possible action re: City Manager ... uh... Would you like to.. go on that? C/M GOTTESMAN: Thank you, Mayor and all Council members. After considerable thought, I wish to put forth the following motion: "I hereby move that we terminate the employment of the City Manager effective immediately upon its passage due to an existence of a real and nonproductive difference in management philosophy which currently exists between incumbent City Manager and, I believe, of this City Council. I do not believe that it is..that it is in the best interest of this City that the present situation continue in the future. Agree to issue payments of four (4) weeks salary, at the present rate, as severance pay, and, in addition, the payment of accrued leave as provided in the personnel manual which shall be the complete liquidated damages against the City. This is in accordance with the resolution appointing the City Manager". MAYOR KRAVITZ: This is a motion that was made and I'm going to ask Council for a second before we go into discussion. I would like to release my chair, if I may, to the Vice Mayor at this time, and I would like to SECOND that motion.... We now have a motion and a second. I'll open this up for discussion. C/M STEIN: Mr. Mayor? MAYOR KRAVITZ: Councilman Stein. V/M MASSARO: You've released the chair, Mr. Mayor. C/M STEIN: But he wants it back again now. V/M MASSARO: He didn't ask for it. MAYOR KRAVITZ: I'll let ... I'll let her hold it. C/M STEIN: All right ... I am completely flabbergasted at the action of this -..and the procedure that has taken place at this moment. From ... his own words, the Mayor said he knew nothing about what this was all about. I didn't know -2- 7/5/85 /vdw anything. I don't know who knew anything about it ... No memorandums was sent to anyone. We're talking about dis- missing ... the chief operating officer of the city —which is a very, very serious situation... Whether C/M Gottesman thinks there is a difference of philosophy, it may be just his difference and the Mayor's as he seconded —the motion; however, I would at least think in the spirit of any fairness... that all members of the Council should have been given the information to deliberate, to digest ... to make up their opinion. To walk in here with no backup, no notion of what's going on and being given motion to dismiss the City Manager, without cause, except a difference of opinion...I think is contrary to the aims of this city and the aims of this Council. I violently object to the entire procedure; I'm not even talking to the validity of any of the charges.. They have nothing to do with what I'm talking about. I'm talking about the procedure as it was done. We have a meeting on Wednesday, a regular meeting,...if C/M Gottesman wanted to make these charges, he should have sent these charges around to the Council so they 'could have digested it and put it on the agenda for Wednesday. I don't know what the urgency was ... This thing was not publicized... How could it be? No- body even knows what we're talking about. It was done in the midst of the Fourth of July holiday where most people are out of town; there's nobody around, and I think it would be terribly for this Council to take such an act without the public having the right to know what's going on ... and more than that, that we know what's going on and why. Thank you. V/M MASSARO: Is there any further discussion? C/M MUNITZ: Yes. V/M MASSARO: Councilman Munitz. C/M MUNITZ: Thank you. You know, to say that this has come as a shock..is putting it rather mildly ... For the sake of... avoiding redundancy I will not repeat practically every word that C/M Stein has said because everything that he said is absolutely true. It's unbelievable in a democratic... supposedly, democratic city, like the City of Tamarac, operating under the rules and principles of democracy on which this great nation was founded ... and we just celebrated its birthday just yesterday, 209th birthday. Where is Tamarac heading? Are we heading towards a dictatorship? Are we heading where it will be a question of bringing up items of absolutely no consequence whatsoever? A difference of philosophy - is that the basis from which a city manager is to be..uh...dismissed? You know, there is an old cliche that I've used time and time again: We may disagree but we don't have to be disagreeable. If we all fought alike, we would end up a bunch of mechancial robots. There must be differences of opinion for progress but to have that as a basis for terminating... the most capable city manager that this city has ever had ... in the short period of time that he's been with us..T think since last late August or early September. We have seen a true professional at work who has brought extreme, positive achievements to this city..under very tiring, trying circumstances ... and this is what we are asked to do: Terminate one of the best things that has ever happened to the city. I am opposed to it ... I think it is very wrong..uh..I..I..I can't go into the legality of it,..uh..Mr. City Attorney..I'll... I'll let ... let you handle that part of it..But as far as I'm concerned, the way it was -3- 7/5/85 /vdw J brought about .... with no charges whatsoever in the memorandum... We have no backup information. We have nothing specific to go by. I'm sure that there are some rights that the City Manager has, Mr. City Attorney. I'm sure that there could be some basis ... some smell, let's put it ... to the actual memorandum which created this meeting ... And I ask a question: Is this a valid, legal meeting? Forgetting about the item that we're discussing: Is it a valid, legal meeting... based on the procedures that we are obligated to follow under our Charter in the manner in which special meetings are called... V/M MASSARO: Uh..I would ask that uh... the City Attorney respond to the legality of the action taken here this morning. MR. HENNING: There are certain aspects that go into play uh... in considering the legality of calling a meeting. Uh..I was with the Mayor, in his office, uh..discussing other business.. on..Wednesday, when..er..he received the memo from C/M Gottesman requesting this uh..meeting. We discussed the fact that the Charter requires 12 hours' notice for a special meeting ... and that was..uh..accomplished. We discussed the fact as to whether or not the request was legal or any violation of the Sunshine Law by him asking for the meeting; I don't find any —thing illegal about the way the meeting was asked for. I discussed, individually, with uh..C/M Gottesman and Coun..and the Mayor.. uh..the possibility of being more specific in the —notice because, as you know, each notice indicates that if a person decides to appeal the decision uh..that the..City..made by the City Council with respect to any matter considered at such meetin or hearing, he will need a record of the proceeding for such purpose, etc.; this is a statutory requirement that goes on each notice..uh... I would say that the uh... that the... specificity of the notice is the only area that concerns me... and, at best, borderline... depending on the action of Council... uh... I am not legally comfortable with taking the finality.... the action of this type of finality —with the vagueness of the mo... of the notice. C/M MUNITZ: In other words, it is your opinion that there is a possibility that this is an illegal meeting; is that what you're saying? MR. HENNING: If there is a legal problem, it is with the... the specificity of the notice. The notice is timely; the notice went out properly —but in all candor it is vague. C/M MUNITZ: I£ I may, Madam Chairman, you mentioned the... V/M MASSARO: If you will, please, just a moment. C/M MUNITZ: I just want to get one part of his statement... V/M MASSARO: Of whose statement? C/M MUNITZ: The City Attorney's. V/M MASSARO: All right. C/M MUNITZ: You mentioned the 12-hour notice requirement... Yesterday was a holiday ... When does the clock stop ticking for a 12-hour notice, and how are the notices given? By telephone calls to us? I mean, there ... there —there is something here that just doesn't smell right. -4- 7/5/85 /vdw MR. HENNING: The notice was given uh... the Mayor gave the notice to uh..requested the Clerk ... The notice went out at approximately..uh..two or three o'clock on..uh...Wednesday.. and uh... V/M MASSARO: Went out in what manner, please? MR. HENNING: All right. It was typed ... and I know that... I ... I have notes here...that at 2:30 I had a discussion with the..uh... with the City Clerk... regarding the specificity of the notice so the notice had gone out by 2:30 on Wednesday... The Mayor was aware of it because he was in the building; Mr. Gottesman was aware of it because he was in the building. I don't recall how the Vice Mayor got notice of it and I would have to def..defer to the Clerk..I assume that phone calls were made to the homes of the other Council members ... And I also noticed, by the way, that a notice was posted on the front door of City Hall, glass door, that there was... C/M MUNITZ: Wasn't City Hall closed yesterday? MR. HENNING: Well, on Wednesday even, it was posted there. C/M MUNITZ: Well, I would hardly feel that the ... date of a holiday... MR. HENNING: I... C/M MUNITZ: could be used as a number of hours necessary... V/M MASSARO: Yes, it can... C/M MUNITZ: to call a meeting. MR. HENNING: Well, I ... I..I disagree with you in that sense. I find nothing wrong with the legality of the timing, the form... the notice going out...the way it was called, I see nothing wrong with that except the actual text of the notice. -I'm uncomfortable with the specificity of the text of the notice. That's all I find fault with. V/M MASSARO: Uh..You...Mr..Henning.... you find a problem with the specificity of the notice ... Are you saying that... regarding of what further information uh..the maker of this uh... action..uh..might bring forth this morning that uh... the..notice, itself, is questionable? If he were to ... give his reasons now ... because I ... I've been waiting to hear something more ... If he were to give his reasons..this morning for his action,...uh..does that cure the doubts that you have? MR. HENNING: All right. There's a couple of points here: First of all, the uh..the initial resolution which is Resolution 84-283, which was effective 9/14/84, which was the appointment to the city manager uh..discuss severance, Section 1d, "Severance after the probationary period has been successfully completed", which, by the way, it has, "if the city manager is discharged by the City Council without cause, he shall be entitled to the following severance pay in addition to the payment of accrued leave as provided by..in the personnel manual which shall be the complete liquidated damages against the city". And in this instance within the first year after probation has been completed, four (4) weeks salary at the latest rate which would be severance pay for discharge without charge. If there was discharge with cause,..then he would not be ME 7/5/85 /vdw J necessarily..he would not be entitled to the severance pay if Council did not specifically elect for that ... uh... If he is discharged for cause, there are provisions in the City Charter —which discuss..uh..the right of a hearing before suspension or discharge take effect. So he would have a right to a hearing if he elects for a hearing... before the enactment of the..uh... of the actual suspension or dismissal if Council goes that route... V/M MASSARO: Uh..I'm not quite clear on uh... what you just said..uh... Do you consider the notice that has been given that you're questioning...uh..do you call this with or without cause? MR. HENNING: Well., so far I... V/M MASSARO: According... MR. HENNING: I've heard it ..... I would have to go back to the phrase..if you're saying because there's a..uh..in the C/M MUNITZ: Difference in philosophy... MR. HENNING: in management..uh...philosophy.. V/M MASSARO: I beg your pardon...Just let me finish with him.. MR. HENNING: uh..I haven't been asked this before but I tend to think that'd,be without cause and it would go under the resolution. I think that would go under the resolution. V/M MASSARO: Okay. According to the record, then,..uh... there is no reason why..uh..he could not be suspended.. without cause... according to what you just read? There's very clear procedure for that? Is that correct? MR. HENNING: Yes. V/M MASSARO: Okay, then what is wrong ... Let's go back to the notice. I'm just trying to get things cleared up. What is wrong with the notice, then? ... If you can suspend without cause? MR. HENNING: Well,— C/M STEIN: I... V/M MASSARO: ..rust one minute, let..let... C/M STEIN: Well, that's my objection; I'm raising objections which I would like to put on record. V/M MASSARO: Objections to what, please? C/M STEIN: All right, to the notice. I was coming to that... V/M MASSARO: Hold..Hold everything; I want an answer from our City Attorney. C/M STEIN: All right. MR. HENNING: Originally, the notice was suggested to be regardi the status of the City Manager ... and that was uh turned down... uh..by the Mayor. And then because —and very frankly because.. 7/5/85 /vdw J there was nothing in the memo from Mr. Gottesman and, to my knowledge, there was no discussion between Mr. Gottesman and the Mayor on this..I was there when the memo came in and we looked at the memo together..uh.. The —The notice as it stands today is verbatim from the memo that Mr. Gottesman uh put in and that's why the Mayor seemed steadfast to stick with that language because that's all he was given from C/M Gottesman. I had... But the suggestion had been regarding the status of the City Manager that was th..that was turned down; next, was regarding the discipline action to be taken against the City Manager.. which I felt was even more specific notice to the City Manager —and that was turned down by uh..C/M Gottesman, and then, in turn by the Mayor since Gottes... since C/M Gottesman did not go along with it..uh..so we left it... vague because uh I had no indication of what specific action was going to be proposed today. Now, getting back here,.. -.the purpose of the Sunshine Law,..which is why we give notices, is to give the interested party —notice of the business at hand in case they wish to present uh... present any information or be prepared to respond or whatever. Let me say this: that uh..in light of the conditions of the —resolution, which provided for dismissal without cause, it's conceivable that —the uh the meeting would be valid... and —and also we need to know whether or not..uh Mr. Johnson is objecting to the notice, whether or not he's prepared since this obviously affects him. But we haven't heard any objection and uh possibly he's waiving any objection to the notice but —since you are entitled to ... go without cause... V/M MASSARO: Are you saying that's a legal opinion of yours that we can..uh move forward without cause and that the notice is legal? MR. HENNING: Well, I would ... I would say, yes. The notice is legal, although vague, I think it would be legal if you go with no cause because there's nothing to defend if there's no cause. If there's any charges made,... certainly, Mr. Johnson has..you know, has to shade some light on whether or not uh he has been... or the other Council members, frankly; Mr. Stein raised an interesting point, too, as to whether or not he is prepared to vote so I would leave it to the panel here - the six of you, including the City Manager, as to whether or not there's an objection to the notice. On its face, it's vague..but I would say that it meets the minimum legal requirements. It's not the way I would have drafted it.... V/M MASSARO: That's not the question what you would do. MR. HENNING: but it is..it is minimum. I understand that. It is the..It will meet the minimum... legal requirements subject to the objections that might be heard. C/M MUNITZ: I'd like to follow that up, if I may? V/M MASSARO: Not yet, please. The City Manager wanted to ask a question. Mr..Johnson? MR. JOHNSON: Madam Vice Mayor, uh..under the Charter...under Section 5 paragraph..subparagraph b it gives the City Manager rights without any —whether the resolution says different or not —of a hearing ... If the Council goes ahead with the motion _7_ 7/5/85 /vdw J that has been proposed this morning —and there is allegations in that proposal ... I would request, at this period and time, that I have the right of a public hearing under the basis of the Charter and I demand those rights. V/M MASSARO: You're... You're demanding a hearing? MR. JOHNSON: Yes, ma'am. V/M MASSARO: Okay. I see nothing wrong with that but uh.. Now, let me see, Mr..uh..C/M Stein. Now, please, C/M Stein. C/M STEIN: I... I* V/M MASSARO: Before you speak, Councilman. Mr. Mayor, would you like the gavel back? (V/M Massaro passes gavel to Mayor Kravitz.) MAYOR KRAVITZ: Councilman Stein. C/M STEIN: I'd like to put on the record that I raised an objection to the notice; I did that originally. I don't think that's proper notice to anybody sitting... maybe to the Mayor and to....C/M Gottesman since they knew what was going on... but I don't know how anybody in their right mind would know exactly what was going to happen here today... whether there were charges to be brought against the City Manager —whether there were not charges ... I think we're entitled ... by our positions sitting up here —to digest the charges made by C/M Gottesman. It is not just without cause —His allegation is that there is a severe difference.... between what he says is the policy of the city and what the manager says. Now, I think we should have the right to digest that charge; whether it's just in the head of C/M Gottesman and the Mayor or in the head of everybody; we might agree with it, I don't know. But I'd like to digest what these charges are. Now, it's true ... that our City Attorney says that it doesn't make any difference because we're firing him without.... without cause... However, we are still firing him based upon this difference —of philosophy... That's the charge that was made. I'd like to know what difference in philosophy, what he's talking about and what our City Manager has done ... to impugn the —the good name of this city..is that ... or as some people have said..he's probably the best city manager this city has ever had; I think so ... and that is not important but I don't want to come here Friday in the morning and be faced with the charge to vote to fire the city manager; I'd like to know what the heck is going on so I could know —and now that the city manager has asked for a hearing ... I would like to ask in all fairness... that we do not vote ... until we hear the city manager's side and C/M Gottesman's charges that he has and then make our decision. MAYOR KRAVITZ: C/M Stein, number one, we have a motion on the floor.... C/M STEIN: I'm moving to table. MAYOR KRAVITZ: All right, before I ask again for a motion to table ... if that's your desire, I think we ought to get the record cleared up because you mentioned two or three times that "only C/M Gottesman and the Mayor knew what's going on", as usual, you're incorrect.... We did not know what's going on; a request was sent out..by C/M Gottesman 19a 7/5/85 /vdw • asking for a special meeting ... And you will make certain remarks all the time without knowledge and without knowing what it's all about but you'll make those. I don't think that's germaine to this issue at the present time so I won't go into that but I want it on the record that at no time did I speak to C/M Gottesman or the Vice Mayor or any other Councilman in this city in reference to this item. And you keep saying over and over again that only two knew about it, that is not true. As usual, you will make those innuendoes. At this time, I'm going to call on Councilman Gottesman who had his hand up. C/M STEIN: I made a motion to table which is.... MAYOR KRAVITZ: I haven't called on you for that motion yet, Councilman. Go ahead (to C/M Gottesman). V/M MASSARO: I don't.. Mr..uh... Mayor, I think you have a... a matter of procedure here uh...a motion for tabling uh..does... take... MAYOR KRAVITZ; When it's called on, yes... V/M MASSARO: No, I.... C/M STEIN: No, no, no, Mr. Mayor... C/M MUNITZ: No, no.. MAYOR KRAVITZ: All right. Let C/M Gottesman speak, and then you'll be able to make your motion. C/M GOTTESMAN: In answer to the question why I did not in my request for this special meeting... mention any... reasons or causes ... it was simply because I wanted a meeting and I knew the next day was a day in which I could mull over the various options that are available to this Council ... I decided on the option that I've read to you this morning ... on a'move to terminate, and again I will repeat that the reason I gave is that there is a real and nonproductive difference in management philosophy which currently exists between the incumbent city manager and, I believe, with this City Council. Obviously, there's going to be objections... and also correction... There'd be objections and also people that will agree with my motion... MEMBER OF THE AUDIENCE: And disagree as well. C/M GOTTESMAN: I just said that you don't have to ra... you don't have to call out.. MAYOR KRAVITZ: All right. (Mayor raps gavel.) Let's not get into discussion. C/M GOTTESMAN: No, I don't wish to but let's keep it orderly. MAYOR KRAVITZ: Are you finished, Councilman? C/M GOTTESMAN: Dignified... Thank you. MAYOR KRAVITZ: C/M Stein, did you want to make a motion? C/M STEIN: I MOVE that we table this matter to our regular Council meeting this coming Wednesday. C/M MUNITZ: I'll second that motion. _g_ 7/5/S5 /vdw J MAYOR KRAVITZ: Well, we have a motion and a second, call the question ... To table... VOTE: C/M STEIN AYE C/M MUNITZ: You know, an interesting aspect here is.... MAYOR KRAVITZ: Yes or no, Councilman.. V/M MASSARO: You can not.... C/M MUNITZ AYE C/M GOTTESMAN NAY V/M MASSARO NAY MAYOR KRAVITZ NAY MAYOR KRAVITZ: And, therefore, this motion will continue on. Is there any further discussion on the original motion? C/M MUNITZ: I'd like... MAYOR KRAVITZ: C/M Munitz. C/M MUNITZ: I'd like to pursue the question of possible violation of the Sunshine Law, Mr. City Attorney. You mentioned that the purpose ... of the Sunshine Law is to make certain that proper notice is given to ... Excuse me, people who might be interested parties. Certainly, the... fact that yesterday was a holiday, no one was available except by telephone calls, I..I really feel that this should be a matter that the Charter Board ... is obligated to follow up as to whether or not there were actual, possible violations of the Sunshine Law and the way this matter came about ... Here is a matter that ... you say there was a notice put on the bulletin board. City Hall was closed yesterday. V/M MASSARO: He didn't say that.. MR. HENNING: I said there was a notice.... V/M MASSARO: He didn't say that. MR. HENNING: on Wednesday... during the day ... There was a notice taped to... C/M MUNITZ: At what time during the day? MR. HENNING: All right. Let me reiterate. I discussed with you the fact that I was on uh..I was working on... working with the Clerk and talking with the Clerk about the notice on Wednesday. I had a proposal to change the notice at 2:30 on Wednesday so the notice was done by 2:30 on Wednesday... because I was asking to revise it so obviously it was already done ... The notice was taped to the inside of the glass door at City Hall, front door, facing out so that whoever walked in from the parking lot could see the notice that there would be a meeting today..uh... V/M MASSARO: Were t'.ie press notified? MR. HENNING: I'm sure that the press was notified, and, obviously, they're here uh..uh — Council, I ... I'm not taking a position on what you do —believe me ... but, you know, in light of the Mayor's comments, that he was not aware ... what this meeting is all about ... and C/M Gottesman's comments that _10_ 7/5/85 /vdw he was still deciding ... Thursday —what this meeting is about ... uh and, in light of the notice, I am very un- comfortable with taking final action today with this notice..Now, if..you know, I can't tell you how a judge'll rule or..you know, but I can only advise you..it..it.. there is a vagueness here. I am not concerned with the Sunshine Law as far as two Council members talking to each other; I'm not concerned with proper notice to the Council; there was 12 hours' notice as required ... I'm not concerned with posting; I think it was posted properly. I think the press was called. I think the people are here as an indication that there was a notice. I've no problem with that ... I am.. professionally uncomfortable with —the text of the notice. C/M MUNITZ: But you won't go so far as to declare it invalid because of the co..uh..text of the notice? MR. HENNING: That ... That's not for me to judge; I'm not the judge. I'm a ... I give legal opinions and I'm.... C/M MUNITZ: You're the one whose legal opinion we rely upon. V/M MASSARO: Mr. Henning...No.. MAYOR KRAVITZ: Vice Mayor. V/M MASSARO: I don't quite understand any of this ... because you read a resolution which very clearly states that uh... you can suspend without any uh..reason... C/M GOTTESMAN: Without cause. V/M MASSARO: without cause. MR. HENNING: Correct. V/M MASSARO: I don't know what we're talking about then that uh that uh a person can't think anymore ... or can't review in their mind..That... That —That changes something. If it's without cause, it's without cause..I..I just don't understand it ... And ... there is a motion on the floor, I would like to amend that motion to this extent ... that the.. City Manager, if, he is ... if it is voted to suspend him that he does have the privilege of a hearing as per his request and some point and time ... But that doesn't necessarily have to affect his suspension at the present time. You tell me, Mr. Henning, how that would work... MR. HENNING: All right. There is either a suspension which is not a dismissal; it's a..presumably disciplinary action... V/M-MASSARO: Okay. You ... Okay, there is a difference... MR. HENNING: in which, he uh..you know, 5, 10 - 15 days whatever you say, without pay uh..or there is a dismissal which is a different action which is termination of employment. V/M MASSARO: Okay. Ours is. -Our motion... MR. HENNING: and the Charter says.... V/M MASSARO: Forgive me, one second. Our motion that's on the floor ... what is the motion before us?... -11- 7/5/85 /vdw V/ MR. HENNING: To fire him... V/M MASSARO: On the floor... MR. HENNING: To terminate him. V/M MASSARO: All right. To terminate. Okay. Let ... That clears that up... MR. HENNING: Okay. V/M MASSARO: But in either case, this motion now is to terminate. Tell me how it applies to that. MR. HENNING: How what applies? V/M MASSARO: The privilege for a hearing. MR. HENNING: Well, the .... the City Manager is asking for a hearing... I V/M MASSARO: Prior ... It says.... i MR. HENNING: Prior to the effectiveness.... V/M MASSARO: prior to suspension or removal. I MR. HENNING: Correct. I V/M MASSARO: And that's... that's MR. HENNING: The Charter. V/M MASSARO: the charmer. MR. HENNING: Correct. V/M MASSARO: Okay... MR. HENNING: Uh... V/M MASSARO: Prior... MR. HENNING: That means that before he...cleans out his desk and picks uo his check, that he has a right to make a presentation t-zat he would work with pay or..or be re- lieved with pay uh until the hearing could take place and the Council could uh hear both sides and vote on it. Now, if Council desires not to present any evidence at all and just say that you're resting on the resolution without cause, uh.., you know, theoretically, you could do that, too. V/M MASSARO: Well, that's what's been submitted so far... MR. HEN14ING: I understand that.... V/M MASSARO: I haven't heard anything different... MR. HENNING: I understand that.... -He is... V/M MASSARO: Now does ... does that still require a..a hearing... _ MR. HENNING: A hear_ng... The question is whether or not the -1_2- 7/5/g5 /vdw J 1 4 B L A N K P A G E -13- 7/5/85 /vdw C/M MUNITZ: I'd like to amend the motion to.... V/M MASSARO: I already did.. C/M STEIN: She already added one amendment... V/M MASSARO: Asked for.... MR. HENNING: What you were asking is how that affects your motion, there'd be a motion on the table to..uh.. on the floor, actually, a motion to uh..to dismiss the City Manager...affording him the rights of a hearing... V/M MASSARO: That... That... Affording him the rights of a hearing is the thing that I would like to add to the motion that's on the floor. C/M MUNITZ: I want to extend that by saying that no action shall be taken by the Council until after the meeting... after the hearing... C/M STEIN: That's what the Charter says... MR. HENNING: Obviously, any action as far as dismissing him. -as far as taking away his paycheck or suspending him... would be uh after and subject to the hearing. C/M MUNITZ: In other words, any action we take now couldn't ...would not be effective until after the hearing? V/M MASSARO: No... C/M STEIN: That's what the Charter says. C/M MUNITZ: Well, I just wanted to make sure. MAYOR KRAVITZ: Uh C/M Gottesman, you had your hand up... Let's go in order here; we're going in circles. C/M GOTTESMAN: The resolution.... V/M MASSARO: I think...J:on should uh..I think.,.A-J,on should answer that legal question... C/M GOTTESMAN: or .-_Jon can answer this. The r,es.olution:._it very specific... that... the manager can be terminated and it lays out the ground rules and I believe I've adhered to them. There are no specific charges. I think it's a question, as I've stated. And I think on that point it d+oesn°t require a hearing and it also supercedes the Charter because in effect... C/M STEIN: A resolution can't supercede the Charter... V/M MASSARO: No. C/M GOTTESMAN: All right. I know we have a lot of lawyers in the audience. If you wish to be heard, I think there's a method of being heard (addressing members of the audience). But I feel that I have followed the resolution and this is the resolution uh rather my motion is a motion asking that the City Manager be terminated and I think it was clearly stated in the resolution why ... It's without cause. MAYOR KRAVITZ: Vice Mayor, do you want to finalize your... -14- 7/5/85 /vdw J V/M MASSARO: Yes. MAYOR KRAVITZ: your motion? V/M MASSARO: Yes, I do want to finalize it and I want Mr. Henning to do that for us ... I would like to know the ... exactly what the procedures are. The motion are.. is to terminate. Our Charter says that he's entitled to a hearing which he..which the City Manager has requested. Can it ... the termination be effected subject to the hearing and a specific date or something —what ... how can this be done... MR.HENNING: Okay.. V/M MASSARO: for the motion to be proper and give the. City Manager whatever rights he is entitled to under our Charter because in no way do we want to circumvent that. MR. HENNING: When... How soon do you want to have a public hearing? Do you want to have a hearing at Wednesday's meeting? When do you ,rant to have a hearing? MAYOR KRAVITZ: No, we can't have it at Wednesday's meeting. It's got to either be prior or after but you can't have it on Wednesday. MR. HENNING: When ... When do you want to have a hearing and.. I ... what I'm saying is ... that you determine the date that you want to have the hearing, you make a motion that uh unless action is taken to the contrary at the public hearing that he would be dismissed as of the public hearing and then you also have to realize or determine that he uh is to receive his paycheck until the public hearing and you could ask him not to come in if you want to give him leave or you could ask him to carry on with his duties until the hearing. But I don't... I'm advising you not to change his pay status until the public hearing and if you tell. me when your public hearing is, we can... MAYOR KRAVITZ: Can we... V/M MASSARO: Tomorrow. MAYOR KRAVITZ: Can we have our public hearing now? ... Is he ready to speak to us now? MR. HENNING: He'd have to answer that. MR. JOHNSON: No, sir. I have to talk to my attorney, Mr. Mayor, .. V/M MASSARO: Tomorrow.. MR. JOHNSON: and I'll let you know. V/M MASSARO: Tomorrow. MR. JOHNSON: Tomorrow or Monday? MR. HENNING: Tomorrow's Saturday. _15_ 7/5/85 /vdw [I V/M MASSARO: Oh, tomorrow's Sat ... Gosh, this holiday's got me confused. MAYOR KRAVITZ: Uh..If we talk about Monday, would that be satisfactory? MR. JOHNSON: Mr. Mayor, in my opinion, to prepare a response to the uh... I think there are charges that C/M Gottesman made... I would need time to talk to my attorney and prepare a response. I would appreciate it if it was no late —earlier than Tuesday or Thursday, Mr. Mayor. V/M MASSARO: Mr. Mayor ... I..I would suggest that we go along with the Tuesday date ... and that uh..in..in the motion that the City Manager be relieved of his duties..with pay until the public hearing. MAYOR KRAVITZ: First of all, let me ask the maker of the motion if he'll accept the amendment. C/M GOTTESMAN: I ... I have two questions since —we have so many... so much legal talent around ... There is a motion on... the floor right now that has been seconded ... Do we pursue a roll call on that motion... MAYOR KRAVITZ: Uh..We have an amendment... MR. HENNING: There's been a request.... C/M GOTTESMAN: They're asking for an amendment. MAYOR KRAVITZ: The amendment would come first. C/M GOTTESMAN: The amendment would come first. MAYOR KRAVITZ: If it's defeated, then, you go back to the original motion.. V/M MASSARO: Mr. Mayor, it's... MAYOR KRAVITZ: if it passes..... V/M MASSARO: foolhardy not to address the amendment properly. We have a charter; we must abide by our charter.... C/M GOTTESMAN: All right. V/M MASSARO: no matter what we think. C/M GOTTESMAN: I'm not ... I'm not trying to avoid the charter; I just... V/M MASSARO: I just want to make sure that that's clear.... C/M GOTTESMAN: I'd like to point out that Tuesday morning... this hall is occupied... by a... MR. HENNING: Board of Adjustments. C/M GOTTESMAN: Board of Adjustments. V/M MASSARO: They can meet upstairs. C/M GOTTESMAN: All right. Fine, if that's possible, and, then, Tuesday afternoon.... MAYOR KRAVITZ: Would you accept that for Tuesday morning here? C/M GOTTESMAN: Yes, I have no reason not to accept it. -16-- 7/5/85 /vdw MAYOR KRAVITZ: All right ... uh... MR. HENNING: Can you give us a specific time? MAYOR KRAVITZ: Pardon me? MR. HENNING: Can you give us a specific time? 10...8.. MAYOR KRAVITZ: I wish I had my calendar... MR. HENNING: Do you want to take a recess and get.... Tape V/M MASSARO: Don't you think we should vote on it first and 2 then set a time? MR. HENNING: Well, let's say Tues..I... MAYOR KRAVITZ: It'll be Tuesday; I'll set the time... MR. HENNING: Sometime Tuesday, you can set the time... MAYOR KRAVITZ: when I get back up in my office.... MR. HENNING: today. MAYOR KRAVITZ: Now, you accept the amendment.... C/M GOTTESMAN: Tuesday afternoon we have a workshop, too.... Mr. Mayor. MAYOR KRAVITZ: Yes, I know that .... We have to.... C/M STEIN: I'd appreciate it, Mr. Mayor, if you could make it 9 o'clock on Tuesday morning. V/M MASSARO: I think it's a good time. MAYOR KRAVITZ: I don't know what my calendar... C/M STEIN: I said..I said..I didn't say that,,I said I'd... appreciate it if you could. MAYOR KRAVITZ: I just mentioned to the City Attorney I'd have to check my calendar to see what it looks like ... I know I have several appointments —and see if I can get it in..uh.... The maker of the motion accepted the amendment and from what I understand... we will have a hearing on Tuesday ... sometime ... and I will set the time when I get back upstairs ... and now if the seconder will accept the amendment, too, so we will be voting on the amendment at this time ... Is that correct, City Attorney? Let's get that clear. MR. HENNING: All right. You want to vote on amending the motion... MAYOR KRAVITZ: Right, that we meet on... MR. HENNING: to have a meeting on Tuesday for ... there'll be a hearing uh pursuant to the charter regarding the dismissal of the City Manager..if the motion passes to dismiss. MAYOR KRAVITZ: Naturally. 17- 7/5/85 /Vdw 1 J MR. HENNING: The mot ... The vote is on the amendment only at this time. MAYOR KRAVITZ: If we vote on it, then, am I clear that the City Manager is dismissed at this time but he's... MR. HENNING: That's not what you're saying... MAYOR KRAVITZ: What are we saying... MR. HENNING: You're. —You're —You... MAYOR KRAVITZ: let's get that clear. MR. HENNING: You are suggesting, at this time, which is fine,... you're suggesting a motion ... a vote on the amendment... This is strictly a vote..or you can..you can vote on the whole thing. C/M STEIN: That's what Helen did. MR. HENNING: Fine. C/M STEIN: She said she want ... She wanted him not to work... during this time; he's to get paid during this time but not to work until the hearing.... MR. HENNING: Okay, but uh..uh..the maker of the motion is... agreeing or not to... MAYOR KRAVITZ: He has agreed. MR. HENNING: the —to the amendment. MAYOR KRAVITZ: He has agreed. V/M MASSARO: I have to correct my amendment. MAYOR KRAVITZ: Go ahead. V/M MASSARO: because the Charter says he can't be suspended or... C/M GOTTESMAN: Removed prior to... V/M MASSARO: removed prior to the hearing. Can we..and still be in uh..uh..in line with the Charter, can we relieve him of any duties..with pay until..the..because you..you can not suspend him. MR. HENNING: Yes..No... V/M MASSARO: I know but it's... MR. HENNING: No, I'm sorry; suspension is no pay..uh..Admini- strative leave or relieved of his duties ... but you don't take his paycheck... C/M STEIN: Why don't we say administrative leave until the hearing? MR. HENNING: You can r:elease"him of his duties or.... V../M MASSARO: Okay, I just don't want the wrong words in there... I want to correct my amendment... MR. HENNING: All right. Now, what I'm hearing... MAYOR KRAVITZ.: Now, let's get it right... =i :3 7/5/85 /vdw C/M GOTTESMAN: Well, I don't understand... MR. HENNING: Now what I'm hearing ... Let me repeat it..is a motion to relieve the City Manager of his duties until a hearing on Tuesday the..uh 9th, is it? C/M GOTTESMAN: 9th. MR. HENNING: 9th of July uh..at which time a public hearing will be held regarding his dismissal... C/M STEIN: And action taken on... MR. HENNING: and action taken at that time...at that time. MAYOR KRAVITZ: Is that what you want, Vice Mayor? V/M MASSARO: Mayor,..uh..absolutely... That's right ... That's correct. C/M GOTTESMAN: That would be a public hearing... MR. HENNING: It's open to the public but it's not advertised like a zoning hearing. C/M GOTTESMAN: I objected to the words, I mean...I made the motion but I.... MAYOR KRAVITZ: It's not a public hearing but the public is invited. C/M GOTTESMAN: Oh ... Oh, yes, Always. That's true. MAYOR KRAVITZ: All right. Now... C/M MUNITZ: Will we be given an opportunity to speak? C/M GOTTESMAN: What is that? MAYOR KRAVITZ: We will see at the meeting. MR. HENNING: All right. Well, let me suggest this at this point ... Well, let's take the vote first. C/M STEIN: All right. Take the roll, first. MR. JOHNSON: Can I ask a question for... clarification?.... MAYOR KRAVITZ: Let me just say again. In order to keep this meeting going in some kind of way that it'll make sense ... not only to the city clerk when this is typed but to me running the chair ... I'm asking that Council please do not speak out of turn and don't make the motions which are on the floor now..uh... City Manager, you want to speak? MR. JOHNSON: Mr. Mayor, uh two points. Uh..One is, can I have uh some time between now and lunch to get some of my personal stuff out of my office ... and the second question is I'd like clarification 'cause the charter does say a public hearing... That's the specific words in the charter... V/M MASSARO: That's alright.. 4r -19- 7/5/85 /vdw MR — JOHNSON: and it would not be fair to me if the public is not allowed to speak. MR. HENNING: No ... Excuse me.... MAYOR KRAVITZ: I have one question, Mr. City Attorney, if it's a public hearing, do we vote at a public hearing? MR. HENNING: Absolutely. You can ... You do it at the zoning hearing... V/M MASSARO: Remember that this is without cause... C/M STEIN: Sure, it's a public hearing... V/M MASSARO: It's a public hearing without cause —what are they going to talk about ... so it's a public hearing, Mayor. MR. HENNING: Well, what I'd like to indicate here and we came up with this ... with Mr. Binder situation... and...I think that both sides... Obviously, the Council has a right to speak and the Council has a right to request specific people to speak..The Council can call witnesses. And Mr. Johnson has the right to speak and Mr. Johnson has the right to ask people to speak... call witnesses... But, if various people in the audience wish to speak but neither side wants to hear them, they're not —recognized as a witness, then I would discourage or say they should not speak... just as..members of the public shouldn't come and speak but if either side ... wants somebody to .'speak, they should be entitled to call a witness. C/K-,$TF'IN: That's what we decided.... MAYOR KRAVITZ: C/M Stein, please refrain from discussion... Afe: we?l all clear now on the motion? V/'M- MASSARO: I am. MAYOR KRAVITZ: City Attorney, would... V/M MASSARO; You're on the amendment, first? MAYOR KRAVITZ: Yes, but before we take... C/M GOTTESMAN: Can I hear that amendment, please. MR. HENNING: I'm sorry. What you all told me a minute ago is that you want to have one vote on the whole thing as amended. C/M STEIN: Right. MR. HENNING: And the motion as amended is to relieve the City Manager of his duties with pay until Tuesday, July 9, 1985 at which time there will be a hearing held in public regarding his dismissal. V/M MASSARO: Okay, that's fine. MAYOR KRAVITZ: All right. Everybody knows now. C/M GOTTESMAN: I've heard it now and that's recorded as such... MAYOR KRAVITZ: All right. Call the question. l 1lm 7/5/85 /vdw VOTE: C/M STEIN AYE C/M MUNITZ NAY C/M GOTTESMAN AYE V/M MASSARO AYE MAYOR KRAVITZ AYE MAYOR KRAVITZ: And I will announce sometime this morning... what time on Tuesday... this meeting will be held. It'll be publicized and the City Clerk will issue that memorandum. MR. HENNING: And I assume that ... Let's say that uh..by 2 o'clock in the afternoon the switchboard operator will know the time if anybody wants to call ... the switchboard operator will have that information. And just for the record and to Council this public hearing is being noticed uh..without cause and no grounds have been given other than what comments have been made by Mr. Gottesman so far. MAYOR KRAVITZ: All right. Meeting is adjourned.* ,Meeting adjourned at 10:55 a.m. ASSIS NT CITY CLERK This public document was promulgated at a cost of or $ S ^r�s per copy to inform the general public and public officers and employees of about recent opinions and considerations by the ��,nc;\ of the City of Tamarac. -21- 7/5/85 /vdw CITY OF TAMAR C. OVER AT MEETING OF City Cleric J