HomeMy WebLinkAbout1987-12-17 - City Commission Joint Special Meeting Minutes1-1
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5811 NORTHWEST 88TH AVENUE 0 TAMARAC, FLORIDA 33321
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P.O. BOX 25010
TAMARAC, FLORIDA 33320
NOTICE OF JOINT WORKSHOP MEETING
CITY COUNCIL & PLANNING COMMISSTON
There will be a joint workshop meeting between the City
Council and Planning Commission on Thursday, December 17,
1987, at 1:00 P.M. in the Council Chambers of City Hall, 5811
N.W. 88th Avenue, Tamarac.
The subject of the workshop meeting is Growth Management
pursuant to Administrative Rule 9J5.
Carol E. 13arbuto
City Clerk
AN EQUAL OPPORTUNITY EMPLOYER
POLICY OF NONDISCRIMINATION ON THE BASIS OF HANDICAPPED STATUS
CITY OF TAMARAC
CITY COUNCIL AND PLANNING COMMISSION WORKSHOP
THURSDAY, DECEMBER 17, 1987
TAPE 1
This meeting was a joint Workshop meeting between the City Council and
the Planning Commission regarding Growth Management pursuant to
Administrative Rule 9J5.
CALL TO ORDER: Vice Mayor Stein Called this meeting to Order on
Thursday, December 17, 1987, at 1:00 P.M. in the Council Chambers.
CITY COUNCIL
ABSENT AND EXCUSED:
PLANNING COMMISSION
nnPePMT-
Vice Mayor Sydney Stein
Councilman Jack Stelzer
Councilman Henry Rohr
Councilman Bruce Hoffman
Mayor Bernard Hart
Chairman David Krantz
Vice Chairman Sam Levine
Emil Beutner
Seymour Stein
ABSENT AND EXCUSED:
Daniel Cantor
Anthony Grimaldi
Gus Frost
Joseph Suiter
ALSO PRESENT:
John P. Kelly, City Manager
Richard Doody, City Attorney
Pauline Walaszek, Special Services
Secretary
The following document is Verbatim as requested by
Chairman Krantz.
City ,Tanager Kelly: I would like to, if I may.
V/14 Stein: Sure.
City Manager Kelly: I thought it very important that we have
this rneeti g to update all of us as to the
responsibilities that the City is going to incur under
the Growth Management Act. Interesting to note that
today, eighteen years ago, the United States Air Force
made a report about UFO's, saying that there was no
threat to our security. This Growth Management Act and
the impact on it could have more to do with our future
security than that report by the Air Force. I think the
financial implications of what the Growth 114anagement Act
is going to do to all Municipalities, Broward County and
City of Tamarac in particular, is substantial and I do
nor- re -ally believe that many of our officials, department
heads, the people in the general public, are not all
aware of how important this Act is and what it is going
to mean to us. With that, Thelma Brown -Porter has been
working diligently in preparing our response. We have
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two consultants aboard that are working with us in
preparing a response in preparation for this and Thelma
is going to lead our discussion today giving some
concrete examples of what it could mean to the City in
terms of development of some of the undeveloped, now
undeveloped areas of our community. Thelma.
Thelma Brown --Porter: Before I get into the examples of what
development problems are forthcoming, I would like to
take a moment to go over some of the elements that are
involved in our submittal. Now, the first element that
we are concerned with is the Capital Improvement Element
and without that element in place, with funding and plans
for our future problems to be corrected, we can not allow
for development to continue. That is the major thrust of
what we have before us within the next six months, at
which time, we must have calculated for the State what
our financial burdens will be in putting in place certain
items such as Water and Sewer Development Plans for the
expanded Land Section 7 area. And briefly, we have
calculated what our impact is going to be locally for
Land Section 7 and estimated traffic impact. We have
$1,108,000.00, 432... excuse me, let me start that over,
$1,108,000.00, which we must have in place for the future
expansion of Hiatus Road and for the intersecting road,
which we do not have planned for at this time. So
immediately, the $1,000,000.00 will have to be planned
for in next year's budget. That is the initial response
to the Trafficways Plan. The utility lines that must go
into Land Section 7 are going to cost approximately
$13,000,000.00 to which we have not calculated for nor
have we planned for in our budgets with the exception
that ERC fees are being charged to the developers as they
come in. But, if we are responsible to have in place
these utilities and sewer lines, prior to development
going in, our concerns is where is that money going to
coma from first before the developers will come in and
ultimately pay for. Without these funding sources being
in place, the City could very well be moratorium
situation where we could not allow development to
continue. That is one of the major concerns. We will be
receiving impact fees for those developments from our
road improvement fund, which is an impact fee that was
put in place about two years ago, but that does not take
care of all of the needs in that area. What has to take
place at this point, is our City's Finance Director has
to determine what types of fees are going to be coming in
from ad valorem taxes, franchise taxes and determine
whether or not we can afford the improvements that are
necessary for these developments to go on. This study
will have to be in place by March of next year. At which
time, if we do not have the funding in place for these
projects, we will have to develop some sort of impact fee
for which the developers will be assessed for the
development to their property. We have concern about how
we are going to do this knowing that the Growth
Management Act is putting the burden on the City and not
the developer, to put these capital improvements or
facilities in place prior to development, the burden of
responsibility is now on the City. We have existing
problems that have to be corrected in regards to drainages
street improvements, recreation needs, and unless those
needs are also addressed by this City Council and by our
Planning Commission with public input, we can not, of
course, fund these projects. The State is requiring many
inputs, one of which is citizen participation. At which
time, the citizens will bring to the City Council and the
Planning Commission, the needs in their specific
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communities. And the Planning Commission, along with the
City Council, is responsible to address their needs,
whether they be existing conditions or growth related
conditions, and that is what concerns us currently. We
have problems that we have had over at our
sunflower/Iieathgate section where yes, originally they
had complied with the Water/sewer problems and they.had
addressed the Code, but, now we have conditions where the
sewer pipes are leaking. Residents concerns are that
they are not getting the same attention that other
sections of the City are. And also, with the fact that
our Engineering Department has expressed a concern that
these situations need to be corrected. Our Planning
Commission and our City Council need to address these
items as to whether they are existing conditions, whether
they are repair and replacement and those items will have
to be funded. It is no longer a wish list that we are
looking at for the necessary improvements and,
unfortunately, we can not pick and chose the projects
that we feel need to go on. We have to review all of the
projects as they come before us and determine whether or
not their facilities are in place and whether or not
there is funding for such. And, if there is not funding
for such improvements, then we are back into a level of
service problem for development to cease. And, the State
is very serious. They are not going to allow the Cities
to say, we can not afford it. They are calling on the
Cities at this time to give us a complete review of what
your problems are, determine if you can afford it, and if
not, you will have to reduce your level of service to
those areas. During a lot of the Workshops that I have
been involved in and I am sure our consultants will
repeat the same scenario, all of the Cities are concerned
with not having adequate monies in place for the next 5
year capital improvement element. And, about a month
ago, we reviewed a capital improvement plan that came to
the City ... City Council and there was a number of
projects that we had listed that needed to be done.
Unfortunately, there is no money for those projects at
this time. We have not planned for, nor have we explored
the economic feasibility of doing these projects within
that 5 year period and my concern is that if we sign any
document going to the state that we have problems with
existing situations, growth related situations or repair
and replacement problems, and if we are not in the
position to fund them, then our entire Land Use Plan and
our Comprehensive Plan will be decertified. And, ono can
not tell you how serious of an impact that is to the City
of Tamarac. Where currently, we do not have enough
taxable income coming in from the residential districts
to pay for the demands for services and without those
services being reviewed and without the tax balance and
funding in place, then we will be back in a position
where we were back in 1972 where development was reviewed
and if water and sewer was not available or if road were
not available to be funded by the City initially, then
the projects would have to be abandoned and supported by
the State. I will come back to the initial problems that
we have in...in our packages that were submitted to you.
We have submitted all of the documents that you have in
front of you to the State. And, these are the data and
analysis of existing conditions. This may take you two
to three weeks to go through in complete detail but it is
very important that you do go through them and recognize
in the drainage section of the utility code, their
element, there are some drainage problems that need to be
corrected and we need to reevaluate a method of obtaining
funding for us to secure the drainage. The outlines are
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in detail in the utility section and I think Mr. Stelzer
had wanted a study some time ago produced to see what
type of impact fees could be collected for the drainage
news that we now have. There is funding available
through our Growth Management Grant that we have recently
received, a sum of which should not exceed $6,600.00 for
that drainage report and I would very much recommend that
we proceed and go forward with that avenue with getting
that study calculated and determine exactly how much
money would be coming in for our drainage problem
corrections. And, that is something that this Board will
need to review for those existing conditions. Another
problem that we have is with our recreation element. We
have not enough areas in our recreation divisions to
support the youth organized sports related priorities
that the State has set out. We have to have x-amount of
acres set aside, x-amount of ball fields, x-amount of
tennis courts, x-amount of open space and we have a
deficit within our City which must be corrected and our
recommendation is for a joint center or a municipal
complex housing a gymnasium which would be multi -purpose
and we could calculate that into the requirement of our
recreation element. We have funds available for this
type of endeavor in our growth related parks and
recreation fees. So, I would encourage you to look at
that as a possible avenue for us to correct a deficiency
that we now have in our City. We have problems with our
Conservation Element also, which is the fact that we now
have a nest of eagles over by University Hospital that we
had not addressed initially in our Conservation Element.
We did not know that there were a nest of eagles there
and it appears as if EPA and other conservation groups
are now coming to Tamarac to find out what can be done
with this development because we have now planned a 60
bed hospital facility there, as you well know, and they
may be reconsidering that. We have our Housing Element
which will indicate to you that most of our population is
65 or older, as a matter of fact, about 69% of those
people residing in Tamarac are above the age of 65. That
may well be the reason why we are adult oriented here and
you may and citizens may state that we do not have to
provide services for the youth because we are primarily
adult oriented but that is not the way things work and
unfortunately, we have to plan and provide for both youth
and adult oriented services and the local impact and
economic impact is going to depend on this Council and
this Planning Commission and, unfortunately, without the
input from all of the various different department heads
and the citizens and this Council and this Commission,
then we are not going to be in a position to allow for
any future growth in Tamarac which we need so
desperately. I am going to call at this time on John
Anderson and John has been working on many of our
elements that we prepared in-house to go over the data
and analysis that is needed for the State. John is one
of our consultants. He was formally with the City of
Plantation and has many years experience in Land Use
Planning. One interesting thing that John Anderson is
doing for us now is going through all the detail work
that our staff and our little community development
division had put together and he is fine tuning it so, we
are very pleased to state that we had one of the finer
planners in Broward County here to help us with it. John
Anderson, please.
C/M Stelzer: Syd, can I ask one question.
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V/M Stein: Yes, go ahead.
C/M Stelzer: Thelma, I understand everything that you said
and I see no problem with the exception that that
$13,000,000.00 for Land Section 7. You mean to say we
have to improve and provide for utility facilities there
even if not one piece of land is developed out there.
Thelma Brown -Porter: This is correct, sir.
C/M Stelzer: That's crazy.
Thelma Brown -Porter: That's the new State Law. If we are
going to... if we are going allow for development to go on
out there, we have to provide the necessary services for
them to connect to. Now, that does not mean tnat the
developers are not going to be paying for this.
C/M Stelzer: No, but we got to get the $13,000,000.00 up
to pay for it now.
Thelma Brown -Porter: Well, that is exactly what it means.
Now, we have a method of doing that and there are monies
in a fund called CIAC Charges that can be used for that.
That is the future installation money of .... Bill
Greenwood collects on all of the development plans. That
goes in to a funded account in our Finance Department
which can be used for that but we have to allot x-amount
of dollars to that program or to that area to include the
utilities.
C/M Stelzer: The CIAC monies that we got now have been
allocated to future developments without Land Section 7.
Thelma Brown -Porter: It may very well have included Land
Section 7. We are asking for a report from our Finance
Division so we will be better able to answer.
V/M Stein: Thelma, Jack asked you and I the same thing.
What we are talking about basically, I am not saying
there is not short fall, there is a short fall, but what
we are talking about is allocations.
Thelma Brown -Porter: That's correct.
V/M Stein: Providing for....we never have. We have been
going along hap-hazardly and saying as it happens. What
we need now is to make provision, not that...we are not
saying that there is no money there. It might very well
be money there, it may be able for instance, part of Land
Section 7... we are in the process of working an agreement
where the developer is going to expend the money or he
has agreed to expend ... and then get it back as
development comes for the whole area. In other words,
water and sewer and the rest ... he is putting up the money
and we will recover the money. And, that does not mean
that we can not do that with the rest of it too. It's
just that we have to tell the State how we are going to
do. Is that right?
Thelma Brown -Porter: That's right. That's correct.
V/M Stein: I mean I do not want everyone to get hysterical
here that we are going under. But, what is the purpose
of the thing is to have a plan which we do not have at
the present time.
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Thelma Brown -Porter: Well, we do have but it has not been
approved by the City Council and the Planning Commission.
We know what...what needs we have. We know the other
department heads submittal to use of those capital items,
what they need in order to allow development to continue
but the burden now is on the legislatures to determine
which ones of those needs they feel is a priority and to
start verifying and justifying the needs and then how it
is going to be funded. Within a 5 year period.
C/M Rohr: I have a question, Thelma. Do I follow you
when you say that we have to provide the facilities prior
to any building that goes on in that area. Is that
correct?
Thelma Brown --Porter: That is correct.
C/M Rohr: But we do not have ... in other words, there is
a period of time prior to a building program being
commenced. In other words, if there is no desire on
anybody's part to build anything, why would we have to do
something 3 to 4 years in advance of the parcel being
used?
V/M stein: You lose the Land Use Plan that you have. If
you do not provide within the 5 years what you are going
to do there, then that thing is dead and you have to
start from scratch all over again.
Thelma Brown -Porter: I think I understand what Henry is
say nisay g. C 1%1 Rohr, what initially we have to do is come up
with a master plan.
C/M Rohr: fine, I understand that.
Thelma Brown -Porter: And that master plan has to indicate
exactly what is lacWing, let's say, in a certain area and
how we are going to fund that position....that facility.
It does not mean that you have to put it in the ground
but fund it for when it is available.
C/M Rohr: Okay. Right.
C/M Hoffman: Will Mr. Anderson's report touch on any of
this?
Thelma Brown -Porter: Mr. Anderson's report will touch
probably on everything and more...
C/M Hoffman: Then why don't we wait until we hear that.
Chairman Krantz: Thelma, can I ask a question. Am I to
assume that the thrust of this whole meeting, the bottom
line, is financing of all the different projects and
elements.
Thelma Brown --Porter: Well, capital improvements are very
important. Without our program approved by the
legislatures, then we can not continue with our Land Use
Plan. But that is not the only important issue here.
The important issues are citizen input into what we are
doing and that, citizen input, for instance, if we hold a
Planning Commission Hearing locally, and it is regarding
the elements that we now have in front of us, no matter
if we have 7,500 citizen here, we must listen to all
7,500 citizens. We can not cut them off, we cannot deter
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them from saying whatever they think their problems are
and then we would have to answer those problems. It is
encumbant upon all of us to listen to what the residents
are saying. If they have a concern in their area and
something needs to be corrected, then we must address
those concerns and then report back to our Council. Mr.
John Anderson.
John Anderson, Consultant: It's a pleasure being here
today gentlemen. I'll give you a brief run down. I, for
one, would like to get ... would very much like to get your
input on some of the things that we are doing to help
guide the staff as they continue. To give you a brief
introduction, again, I am repeating some of the things
Thelma said. You have the...before the first part in
these documents today of this overall effort. The first
part is the data and analysis, to identify the problems
that you have in the community, to identify the
opportunities that you have ahead of you and kind of get
some scope for it. The next thing that is coming up and
coming on down the line in this next year's program is
developing first of all the goals and objectives for each
of these elements of the plan and we will be going over
some of these elements as we get on in today's meeting.
Goals, objectives and more importantly the policies. The
goals are expressed in terms of the broad brush aims,
what you expect the City of Tamarac to be in the future.
What your view, kind of your dream picture of the City of
Tamarac. Your objectives are the shorter range things
that you ... that are necessary before you can reach those
goals. The policies are the specific things that you as
the governing body should enact and build into
legislation and other implementing programs, such as,
your capital improvement program to make sure that these
come about for that future. And with all plans, it's
not... it's not immutable once you put it down at this
time at the end of this planning period. Its subject to
change, it's subject to revision and updating and should
be on a regular basis but on a comprehensive basis. So,
that is kind of the rough outline of what the process is.
The end of that ... the conclusion of most of these
elements is a plan or a similar document and probably the
most important thing that Thelma has talked about, and I
am sure that you are very concerned about, is this
capital improvement program. Back in 1985, the
legislation that governed the preparation, review and
adoption of plans indicated that all things proposed in
the plan should have financial feasibility and they left
it up to the community to determine how that financial
feasibility was to be accomplished. And, I think most
Cities kind of laughed at that, most Council's felt well,
maybe a capital improvement program is a good thing to
have but we are really in a high growth mode right now
and we've got money, we ... let's get on with the job and
start with the building of the City. And they never did
get very serious about the capital improvements aspect.
These things are growing and we are still in a high
growth mode here in Broward County and elsewhere in South
Florida but we are in a very serious pending and
potential deficiency situation at the State levels and,
you probably heard some of the estimated short falls that
the State has anticipated and some, they are very
important programs. A lot of our facilities within the
communities are wearing out, they are aged. We have got
to repair a large number of streets we thought would hold
up for a long time. We got to replace facilities such
as, water lines, waste water lines. We've got to upgrade
facilities that are aging and need replacement. The
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minor things mount into big numbers and instead of
hitting these on a piece meal basis, the State in its new
legislation in 1985, has said okay, you have got to put
it down in writing, if you do not do this within 1 year
after the adoption of the plan and adopt a capital
improvement program, you can not issue a development
permit for development, which is going to impact the
community and the facilities that you are in... unable to
support by the facilities that are there. So, that is I
think, kind of the most important part of it, really. To
go over the elements themselves, it comes in a very thick
document called 9J5, the State provided all local
governments with, which is the Administrative criteria
and requirements for the preparation of the plan. Public
participation, which Thelma referred to, is very
important in the process. We all said we have open
meetings in most of the Cities in this County and Tamarac
has advertised it's public meetings. It is maybe not
necessarily encouraged the participation of neighborhood
groups but certainly, welcomed them into the halls and
accepted their comments and responded to people's
comments and neigborhood groups' comments. It is a
little bit even more serious now in the procedures
established under the Growth Management Legislation in
that citizens have a detailed procedure for taking
recourse against the City, for some elements of the comp.
plan that they may have violated in the course of their
issuing permits. So, it has provided a mechanism for
Cities to respond to governments that may not be as
responsible as -they should be and your City Attorney will
probably get into discussion of these with you at some
point. The plan must be based upon a reasonable estimate
of population and we have as background in these
documents a population forecast for about 57,000
population which we expect to be reached by the year 1996
or thereabouts. If your building rates that have been
exhibited over the past ten years, continue into the
future, you are now about what, 41,000 population, so,
that is not a big population but it is a substantial
number of population and the population characteristics
could change over time. It must be based upon the
economic growth potential of the community. And these
are basic elements and basic requirements in all of the
elements of the plan. The future Land Use Element, which
is probably going to occupy a lot of your concerns and
considerations in Land Section 7 and other areas of the
City. How much land you need for future growth, what
kinds of changes can you expect, what kind of changes
should you plan for. This is the basis of the future
Land Use Element and population forecast for your traffic
circulation. For determining the capa...future capacity
of your streets, are the streets adequate at this time,
are they operating at a satisfactory level of service.
And one thing I want to back up a minute on. I think
another, maybe the second most important element and
something that was buried in a lot of comprehensive
plans, as Thelma mentioned, I was the Planner in the City
of Plantation, we had a lot of goals and objectives and
policies and levels of service concepts buried in the
plan but it was very difficult for anyone to find them.
One of the first things that we did was an evaluation and
appraisal report to uncover these things. You will be
determining levels of service for your various
facilities, your streets, your parks, your water
facilities and so forth, and these must be generally
acceptable standards. You may set higher standards for
your City in certain areas. This is an important part of
it, your streets have levels of service. We classify
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them in looking at them in A through E level of service
depending on the best possible circulation, free -flow of
traffic and the worse possible, classification F, level
of service F. You will be looking at some extent at mass
transit. Cities over 50,000 are required to consider
this. A City your size is not required to but mass
transit, probably, at least in my views, is an important
element of your transportation network and is becoming an
increasingly important element. And, as you move on down
the line, you will want to give more serious
consideration to it. I understand that you are getting
into a bus stop shelter program, which is an important
part of making that work. It is a small relatively low
cost thing that makes public transportation more
convenient and accessible to people. You will be getting
into the housing element and Leigh Kerr is going to be
discussing this with you in terms of determining the
entent to which you could meet the housing needs of your
future community. Sanitary Sewer, and this is a long
one, Sanitary Sewer, Solid Waste, Drainage Potable Water
and Natural Ground Water Aquifer Recharge Element. That
is your basic infrastructure. It is what makes your City
tick, it's what your here ... it's what you are all about,
for the health safety and general welfare of the
citizens. The Conservation Element, as Thelma has
pointed to. Some of these are kind of intermixed.
Conservation goes with Groundwater Recharge. You had a
recharge program here on your golf course which you now
no longer have. We are recommending in the portion of
the program called Intergovernmental Coordination, that
the County explore ways in which the water now treated at
central plants can be re. —can be channeled back into
communities that have lands such as golf courses, large
public parks and other open space reservations. Some
developments that are willing to accept it ... treated
wastewater that is 99 and 44 100% pure, as they say, that
will help recharge our basic resource here in South
Florida. Our Biscayne Aquifer. Then going finally into
recreation and open space and this is a key aesthetic
element of the community, frequently defines what people
think of in the community. And then finally, into the
intergovernmental coordination, which is how can we work
better with the Broward County Government, Agencies of
Government with a regional agency, such as South Florida
Water Management, South Florida Regional Planning
Council, Federal Agencies that are involved in these
programs. So, that pretty much hits the high spots, 1
think, of what the program is all about. It's a very
complex task. it's a very detailed task. The model
elements that were circulated to all unit governments is
about 6 inches thick. And, I am sure your community is
not going to be looking for a plan that is that thick but
looking for something that is meaningful to the point and
directed toward your real honest growth needs. Thelma.
City Manager Kelly: John, i would like to ask you a
question. To put it ... what we are trying to do in
perspective... you know we have heard the generalities,
what it means, can we draw a specific example locally?
'fake a fictional developer of...Kings Point say, with
a ... and somebody here like Marty Reifs, that nobody know
about right? How is this, how is our inability to comply
with the Growth Management Act. Say we don't do it. Say
we are being forced to do this, it's being ramrodded by
the State, it's not fair, we just do not have the
resource to do, we are not going to do it. How is that
going to affect a Kings Point development in the City of
Tamarac?
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John Anderson: Well, in short, flat out, you will not be
able to issue a development permit for that development.
City Manager Kelly: Effective when?
John Anderson: Effective, I believe it's one year after
the completion of the plan, which includes the capital
improvement...
City Manager Kelly: The final day of submittal of plan is
when?
John Anderson: In your adoption of the plan, I'm sorry.
At this time, Commissioner Anthony Grimaldi attended the
meeting.
City Manager Kelly: Okay. The final date of...
John Anderson: Which would be, I think, in December? 19...
Thelma Brown -Porter: August.
John Anderson: August?
City Manager Kelly: August of this next year?
John Anderson: Next year. Correct.
City Manager Kelly: We have to have that submitted to the
State?
John Anderson: Correct. Yea.
City Manager Kelly: Approved by us at that point?
John Anderson: Yes.
City Manager Kelly: And from that point it goes to the
State far them review and approval. And they've got to
accept...
John Anderson: Adopted by you and sent to them ... trans-
mitted to them for sufficiency and.....
City Manager Kelly: And they must accept it and approve
it by....
John Anderson: I don't think there is any ... there is a
schedule and I forget exactly what that is, John.
City Manager Kelly: Okay.
John Anderson: It's a ninety day review period that they
have to get comments back to you or something on that order.
Deficiencies and so forth to be corrected.
City Manager Kelly: He has a plan now in affect. A long
range plan, a master plan that....
Marty Riefs, Kings Point: It's a concept plan more or
less....
City Manager Kelly: It's a little bit more than that but,
he has a plan in place where he proposes development is
going to be. Identified, the City's got the records of
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it. The Streets are not all there, the utilities are not
all there. It's planned for phases. He's going to be
shut down totally?
John Anderson: As Thelma indicated, unless the facilities
are either in place or provided for...
City Manager Kelly Or the resources identified.
John Anderson: ...some way through impacts fees there
is ability to build off site facilities or unless they
are built into your capital budget and he knows that by
the time he gets his C.O. and opens his doors, and you
know that those facilities are there and operating, you
can not issue the permits.
Marty Riefs: Since you used me as the example, I like to
go a step further.....
V/M Stein: Marty, Marty, wait a minute. If you want to
speak I'll give you a chance but I want you to identify
yourself otherwise she's going to have hodge podge on the
tape and won't know who's talking about what.
C/M Hoffman: May I ask a question?
V/M Stein: Yes.
C/M Hoffman: rlost of the major roads in a City like
Tamarac are County Roads. How does that affect us in our
plan? We basically have very little to do with what the
County does. We can't force them to do anything. How
does that impact us?
Thelma Brown -Porter: I had the same question you had C/M
Hoffman. Some of our roadways systems are being
identified at a level of service that the County feels
they are ... in one particular case, we have a trafficway
plan that identifies Commercial Boulevard as a level D.
So, the level of service that everyone has to consider is
a level D; however, our plan is showing that at a level
E, which means that the road is more impacted in certain
areas than the impact that the County is stating
that... that the overall level is. We are debating
currently with the County and with the State as to what
type of level of service will we enjoy. They're taking
into consideration a longer stretch of Commercial
Boulevard than we are. We are concerned with our area
and they're concerned with the overall so, that is a
question we currently have with the County and we do not
feel that we should have to upgrade their impact of what
they say the level of service is.
V/M Stein: I might comment, I spent a couple hours this
morning with the Metropolitan Planning Organization and
once again there's bad news, I do not think there's any
good new around at all. The State is now pushing some of
the roads back to the County which the County feels the
State should do. But, if that happens, then of course
the County's going to push a few more back on the Cities
because they are not going to have enough money to fund
all the way through. They are getting tight enough to
have an attorney, maybe, and proceed against the State
and force them. I think all they have accomplished to
date is to get the Sawgrass. Now, this was a big battle
to get the State to agree to maintain the Sawgrass, they
wanted the County to do it. And, that is how tight this
is. So, if that happens of course you won't have any
Page 11 , /
12/17/87
maintenance on any roads except the very major highways
and right now, I think the County has Commercial
Boulevard in there for four lanes even though it has six
lanes and they are not about to expend any more money
unless the State comes along and fixed that up. They
claim that's effeted to the Sawgrass and the State should
be involved. So, as I say, as far roadways, we may think
that we don't have any problems, but if they start
backing up, they are going to knock on our door and say,
hey, this is your problem take care of this road.
Thelma Brown -Porter: We..We had been concerned with just
that issue because as you know, Mr. Couzzo's Department
will be responsible for hiring additional crews or buying
additional equipment should that come to light. We had
not planned for that, quite honestly, and it appears as
if what you had just stated, is going to take place
within the next six months. The State is trying to
relinquish the maintenance programs onto the local
municipalities and I do not believe that Mr. Couzzo's
Department can afford or has budgeted any monies for
those improvements and it is going to definitely come
back to the Cities.
John Anderson: This, I think highlights the importance of
that last element that sounds like it's just something to
finish the report. It's called Intergovernmental
Coordination. Your a member of the MPO, I gather
Councilman. Thelma is represented on the Technical
Coordinating Committee of that Group which has been doing
a lot of hard work with Bruce Wilson, the Director of
that Staff, to come up with these recommendations,
findings to bring forward to you to get ... try to get some
leverage with the State. It's very important to keep
involved in those things because a lot of these levels of
services, as been pointed out, are super imposed on you
and unless you keep active in local organizations like
the MPO and the Technical Advisory Committee of the
Broward County Planning Council, you know, coordination
will happen. It will be done to you if you are not
participating.
V/M Stein: Correct. I saw this happening but I didn't...
I think this morning was a very rude awakening. I though
I was going to a very lovely meeting to elect a new
Chairperson but that's not what happened. Bruce Wilson
had 11 items in there and we had a new attorney who was
going to represent the County in a battle but the sum and
total is, they have the roads on there and if the State
does not do them, the County has to pick those roads up
and then back right back to us. You know, priority,
priority, priority and it comes down and then they say,
hey, you take care of these roads because we can't take
care of them. And they are going to have the same
problem ... as a matter of fact, one of the
recommendations .... the only problem I had was, will
somebody please tell me, you just handed us this an at
the MPO I have one, as you know Bruce Wilson has one
twice the size of this one. When do you go through these
things. But one of the big problems that are coming up,
is funding. The County is now looking for funding to
take over these things because they will not have the
funds for the next 5 years, they are talking about and in
the future to take care they want some citizen
participation, as they do here, as to how do they get the
funds to do these road improvements. They can't do it
Page 12
12/17/87
within their structure right now. And of course, the way
the State is now, they are not going to come along and do
anything now. Especially with this new business with the
sales tax back and saying they are having less money
rather than more money we are going to have fun. Any
other questions?
C/M Rohr: I'd like to just make a comment.
Listening g to all this, it seems to me that all this
planning that we are going to be doing will be so subject
to the State and the County, that I imagine that after we
get all through, it won't mean much. And, it really is a
sort of makeshift to present to the next higher authority
so that they can also makeshift to the State. It seems
to me that's what we are all about.
Thelma Brown -Porter: Well, that may... that may be the
appearance on the surface but, what we are responsible to
do at this point is basically to master plan the City and
get the State, the County, the Regional Planning Council
to review it and give us a stamp of approval. If we have
everything in place, land use planned properly, with all
the funding in place for our facilities, then we would be
in excellent position to continue on with what we
planned. The problem is going to be, if we do not have
everything planned properly and if after we submit all of
the documents that we find that we made a mistake or if
we do not have funding for certain projects, that we will
then have put the City of Tamarac in jeopardy of being
able to build out and get a good economic tax base. But
I think we are in very good position. We have submitted
all of our documents to the State well ahead of a lot of
other Cities. We have retained the consultant services
of two of the finest planners in Broward County and we
feel as if we are on top of the situation for Tamarac
and, in addition to that, we are pleased to announce that
we have saved the City of Tamarac a considerable amount
of money. We are doing all of the initial data inhouse
and then retaining the services of Mr. Kerr and Mr.
Anderson to do the fine tuning and we are very pleased to
state that that figure is around $120,000.00 savings. I
would like to call on Mr. Kerr if I could at this time.
V/M Stein: Wait, I have some questions pending. By the
way, will the Planning Commission as they get up, state
your name, not that I don't know but the girl here
doesn't know so ..... yeah, well this is David Krantz,
Chairman.
Chairman Krantz: I would also like to note that Mr. Cantor
is here now for the records. Thelma, perhaps you can
answer this, what is the extent of percentage basis of
the undeveloped area in the City of Tamarac? To know
what development we have to look forward for the next 5
to 10 years.
Thelma Brown -Porter: Okay. In your background report,
your data and analysis, there is a breakdown of
the ... there's a map which shows....
Chairman Krantz: The open spaces, what we have left?
Thelma Brown -Porter: Right. Which shows your undeveloped
area, how much and breaks it down in total acreage. It's in
the background document.
Chairman Krantz: That's important to know.
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12/17/87
TAPE 2
Thelma Brown -Porter: Yes, it is. And also, it shows it...
shows all existing residential dwellings, the number of
acres in each dwell .... in each development, the number of
units and the number of people.
V/M Stein: Commissioner Stein.
Commissioner Stein: Thelma, do I understand that all of
our input and the public input must be in by February?
Thelma Brown -Porter: We would like to have your input in
E_yFebruary.
Commissioner Stein: It's pretty short isn't it, to get the
public....
Thelma Brown -Porter: That's only on your data and analysis.
In March we will be doing the goals and objectives and
you will have .... no there's many phases to this. Your
final product has to be reviewed both by Planning
Commission and by City Council before the end of August,
1988.
Commissioner Stein: okay. Not by February.
Thelma Brown -Porter: I would like to have comments back
by February regarding the submittal packages of today.
V/M Stein: Commissioner Beutner.
Commissioner Beutner: I have some documents in front of
me ... I didn't have too much time to go over but they are
incorrect. For instance, in the Topic Information data
sheet you propose.... property and not the existing one.
I think it should be changed to the existing one.
Thelma Brown -Porter: No, no. What you have in front of
you is data and analysis which shows what is .... what is
the existing certified plan. okay? The certified plan
still shows that Sawgrass Expressway situation.
Commissioner Beutner: Then shouldn't this plan refer to
the certified plan?
Thelma Brown -Porter: No.
Commissioner Beutner: So I wouldn't ask that question?
Thelma Brown -Porter: No, Sir. In the submittal document
requirement, we have to submit the document that was
actually certified which still shows that as being
future. When we go to the next phase, which is the goals
and objectives, then that will be modified.
Commissioner Beutner: Alright.
Thelma Brown -Porter: But this is what's required by the
State.
Commissioner Beutner: Alright. Then on the Ground...
water presentation, the wellfield area, there is more
location than the force there at the present time. We
have Publix there, we have Franks in there.
Thelma Brown -Porter: Same type situation there. That what's
the existing certified....
Page 14 �'d
12/17/87
Commissioner Beutner: And I have not found our new plan
which shows the present situation.
Thelma Brown -Porter: That is in the documents. Could you
show Mr. Beutner where that's located.
John Anderson: okay. I think the main thing that that
points up is that we have conflict between some of the
plans that have been adopted for instance, for water
supply and potable water. And the things that have
happened since and one reason for this data and analysis
phase is to find those things and then correct them in
this next phase'by your recommendations.
Commissioner Beutner: I recommend that these things be
corrected.
John Anderson: Okay. Very good and we appreciate any
suggestions you have.
V/M Stein: Clarification. Are you saying that... that we
did not conform to the plans that we originally filed.
Thelma Brown -Porter: No. What we have in front of us is
existing ...
V/M Stein: No, no, no. I understand what you have. But
T just heard a remark that we have in some way violated
in previous years some of those things that we show and
then we are going to have to modify and show them how
it's built.
Thelma Brown -Porter: That's correct. See, we are encour-
aged to show all of our deviations and in our goals and
policies, then we have to correct those deviations from
the comprehensive plan.
V/M Stein: In other words, Mr. Beutner is, Commissioner
Beutner is correct. There are deviations from what we
filed to what's actually there now.
City Manager Kelp That's correct.
Commissioner Beutner: In other words, on your Compre-
hensive Planning, Section 7, .....I don't understand
would you explain that paragraph to me?
Thelma Brown -Porter: If you would read it, I'd be pleased
to.
Commissioner Beutner: I mean the Comprehensive Plan.... it
says page 7 (a) ... this whole item isn't clear in my mind.
Would you explain to me, I don't understand. where the
....coming from, where they are going or.
Thelma Brown -Porter: Which paragraph Mr. Beutner?
Commissioner Beutner: A.
Thelma Brown -Porter: A. Okay, this deals with a parking
area for interior landscaping which is a requirement of
the conservation element. The City of Tamarac has to
provide for the State detailed areas of how we are going
to conserve our green area that we now enjoy. So, we
have placed into our comprehensive plan, our landscape
ordinance which is verbatim from the Code. Which reads,
"In addition to the requirements of subsection a & b of
this section, all offstreet parking areas shall have a
Page 15 V
12/17/87
minimum requirement of 20 square foot of interior
landscaping per each required parking space. Each
separate landscape area shall consist of either sod,
ground cover, shrubs, trees or any other landscape trees
excluding pavement. There shall be a minimum of one tree
7 feet in height and planted near each 10 required
parking spaces. Notwithstanding the requirement of one
tree for each 10 spaces each island shall have at least
one tree 7 feet in height." And your question is,
explain that to you? That is now part of the landscape
Ordinance.
Commissioner Beutner: Right. No, go on. It says here...I
don't understand. You didn't read the complete item.
Thelma Brown -Porter: Mr. Beutner. This is our landscape
Ordinance.
V/M Stein: Mr. Beutner, this is not for review. Thelmas's
reading some plans.
Commissioner Beutner: That is what I understood that was
given to us.
V/M Stein: Wait a minute. No, I know that. You see the
trouble w th you is that you ask and then you turn around
and you don't listen so what is the sense in discussing
anything. Mr. Beutner, you are reading from the
Landscape Code of the City of Tamarac.
Commissioner Beutner: Alright. This is incorrect the way
I read it. I don't understand that.
V/M Stein: Please. Please, Sir. If you had any objections
to that, you got to have an objection to the Landscape
Code, not to the report. The report is only making that
Code part of it's report. They can't change that. If
you find any difficulty with the landscaping as"where the
3 inches should be, then you, as part of the Planning
Commission and Beautification, should now go back and
have that clarified. But it is not part of our report
here.
Commissioner Beutner: Alright.
V/ICI Stein. Okay?
Commissioner Beutner: Okay. Thanks for the explanation.
V/14 Stein: Commissioner Cantor, please.
Commissioner Cantor: Just one question I was going to ask
Thelma. Fair to call you Thelma?
Thelma Brown -Porter: Please. How are you today?
Commissioner Cantor: In this analysis, which I haven't
had a chance to read, have you projected what you wanted
to with the land or as I hear, that is going to be a
later date. Is that a compilation of the fact as is?
Thelma Brown --Porter: As is.
Commissioner Cantor: With no suggestion as to projection?
Page 16
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1
1
12/17/87
Thelma Brown -Porter: There are some projections in there
as to what the existing deficiencies are. But the next
phase of this, the goals and policies, is going to be the
correction measures that we would need to take place.
Commissioner Cantor: You couldn't give us a flash outline
on the last page?
Thelma Brown -Porter: We could give you a flash outline
but I do not think you would care too much to get a
flash. I think you would want the overall view.
Commissioner Cantor: I'd like to know what was in your
head.
Thelma Brown -Porter: We have a lot of problems with
comprehensively giving you an overview because it impacts
every development project within the City of Tamarac that
has not been planned yet and we need to basically work
the problems out with our engineering, our public works,
our building department before we come back to you and
say this is what we need to do. We need to know from
those departments exactly what their concerns are and
after we've gotten their concerns, we need to get with
Mr. Burroughs, our Finance Director, and see how he's
going to fund the projects for us.
Commissioner Cantor: What your saying then, this is a
compilation of assets, whatever it may be. There is
nothing here pertaining what to do with the assets for
maybe a little here, a little there.
Thelma Brown -Porter: There's some differences. Yes.
Commissioner Cantor: But no particular, even a so called
artist conception for use on the development.
Thelma Brown -Porter: No. But you....
Commissioner Cantor: So, once we've got through with this
primer, we have to wait for the next chapter.
Thelma Brown -Porter: That correct. We've submitted these
to the State and.....
Commissioner Cantor: Are we going to sit with you on the
next chapter or are you going to give it to us?
Thelma Brown -Porter: You will sit with us on the next
chapter also. This one is important for you to know what
we need to do to correct the situation and to let you
know that we are concerned that we do not have funding in
place. We are concerned that we need a multi -purpose
center in order to comply with our recreation section of
our code. We need a drainage study in order to gat some
drainage impact fees coming in to correct problems and
what we need to do with the conservation portion of it is
to address the needs of the eagles over by the hospital,
so those are the concerns right now. We weren't even
aware they were there. I would like to call on Leigh
Kerr and let me say just a little bit about Leigh Kerr.
Leigh is the master of our Land Section 7 Master Plan and
he is the person that designed the corridor to intersect
from Hiatus Road up through the central system of Land
Section 7, which caused the County to then be able to
Page 17 �r'
12/17/87
approve our industrial classification change. He's also
been working with us on our 25 year celebration, our
birthday celebration. He's been working with us on our
Land Use Element and also on our Housing Element.
Leigh...
Leigh Kerr; Good afternoon. It's nice to be with you here
today. I am also a consultant to Broward County and
updated a Countywide Land Use plan so I hope I can help
you downtown when they are formulating the new plan at
the County. What I would like to do today is just
highlight some of the data requirements from the housing
and the Land Use portions. primarily, what the State is
requiring is that we take ... make an assessment. A lot of
it is based upon 1930 census information because of the
level of detail that require that's really readily
available source for that type of information. So,
unfortunately that's...you know, that's 7 years ago and
the next census won't be done, as you know, until 1990
with that information not coming out for a year to 2
years after that date. But, based upon the rules...the
State rule requirements, that's what we are working with
at this time. And, what it shows as of 1980, you had
approximately 15,000 dwelling units within the community
\ and as a comparison to that another assessment we would
have to do is to try to give you a reading of today's
status and it happens that the County maintains an
inventory of dwelling units monthly at that level but
they do not break it down below that value and how many
are owner occupied and renter and that type of thing.
But as of 1987, you had a total of about 20,000 units so
there is a growth in those 7 years of about 5,000 units.
Interesting also, in 1980, you had about a ratio of about
2 to 1 single family to multi -family, in 1987 that's
now...well, it's 12,000 versus 8,000 multi -family. So,
that trend is starting to tighten up between multi --family
and single family. There unit age, Tamarac in comparison
to the County, is obviously, because we are a newer
community, is reflective of a pretty young housing stock
and therefore, pretty healthy housing stock. 80% of your
housing has been built since 1970, while Broward County
there is ... 60% was built before 1970, so, there is quite
a difference there. In unit value, your values range are
pretty consistent with the Countywide average within
Broward County it's in the $40,000.00 to $80,000.00 range
as of 1980. And, of course those values are much higher
now in 1987. The rents, gross rents is another element
we have to address and rents in Tamarac run approximately
$100.00 a month more than the County. The rents
reflective of 1980 are in the $400.00 range, and we all
know today, that rents are much higher in the later
1960's, sometimes getting up as high as $700.00 a month
for 3 bedroom type rental apartments. Many of your other
facilities and mortgage costs and all that are compatible
with Countywide averages. A couple of things the State
is focusing in on, one, I'm really not quite sure why, is
a, the one I'm not sure why is mobile homes. They are
very interested in provision of mobile homes within the
communities throughout the State and I don't know whether
that's something ... I know it's for affordable housing but
whether it's a safety ... it's a safety issue, I feel, in
South Florida because the hurricane status and the like.
So, it may be something that's more appropriate in
northern Florida than... but that's something a lot of the
Cities locally are not sure how to deal with at this
time. Now, as you know, there are no mobile homes within
the City at this .... of Tamarac, at this time; however,
there are a couple of areas that you are considering for
page 18 r
12/17/87
annexation that, I believe, have some existing mobile
home parks. So, if those annexations occur that is one
method of addressing the issue. Group homes, the State's
also interested making sure we provide for and allow
group homes within the communities. I believe you
already have one that is licensed by HRS within the City
of Tamarac. Annexations an issue that we'll be
addressing also, as we go through the later portions of
this study and that would be mainly your five, I believe
there is 5 areas under consideration and mainly the
■ eastern part of the City. There was one question from
the Planning Commissioner about projections....
C/M Hoffman: Pardon me.
Leigh Kurr: Yes.
C/M Hoffman: Could you speak.a little bit louder, please.
Leigh Kurr: Oh. I'm sorry.
C/14 Iioffman: It's very difficult to hear.
Leigh Kerr: The projections one item that's reflective
in the housing analysis is a .... we need to make a
projection of the ... how many units we think will be
coming in within the City and we base that upon the
existing certified plan that allowed units at build out
of that plan. And we applied a factor of 85% knowing
that you would not ... you do not typically get full build
out when the density might be 5 units per acre. You many
times only get 4 units per acre when the site plan comes
in. So, as an approximation, we've applied a percentage
of 85% buildout and that would reflect a ... an additional,
almost 10,000 units that would be built within the
community at buildout in the City. So, that is an idea
of how many units you might ... and that's not .... at this
point we are not .... have not broken that down by type,
but, we will as we assess the future Land Use Element
further. In the data element of the, I think the Land
Use Map, this map reflects the a.... both the State
requirements and the County requirements for identifying
existing land use. As for the County update, the County
has asked the Cities to provide information, while they
update the entire master plan. What I've highlighted
here is the vacant land in yellow and these are still
within existing communities that are also, obviously,
lots scattered throughout, so this does not
reflect... because of the scales, will reflect each vacant
parcel. But, this shows the majority of the parcels and
I think there's also a reduction of this map in some of
your documents that you have. But I think it's an
interesting map which shows that a lot of the growth will
be in the western regions of the City. This is Land
Section 7, which is fully vacant at this time, except for
the shopping center, at the Northeast Corner of McNab
and....
City Man�ace�r Kelly: Which is sort of vacant.
Leigh Kerr: And as John has mentioned and Thelma, we are
anxious to get your input and your comments and feel free
to make any suggestions you feel are worthy and
significant and I am welcome to answer any questions you
might have.
Page 19
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12/17/87
V/M Stein: Somebody wanted to know what the ... they know
where Land Section 7... they wanted to know what the other
big yellow piece...
Thelma Brown -Porter: That's Kings Point.
V/M Stein: That's the gentleman here, Kings Point and
he'll be around with us for a few years. they did not
expect to be here that long, but, they'll be here for a
little while now.
Mart Riefs: At least a year or two.
V/M Stein: Yea, I'm sure.
Thelma Brown -Porter: Mr. Vice Mayor. We would like very
much to get your input regarding our problem with our
recreation and multi -purpose center. To be included in
our element that we have to send to the State. We know
that we have a deficiency. We know that the State is
going to bounce it back at us, that we do not have the
adequate services for the youth oriented community. We
would like very much to continue on with proposing a
multi -purpose center at the existing City park which
would aid us in getting approval from the State for a
recreation element. Now we have funds available in our
impact fee for Parks and Recreations which has been paid
for by developers. That money has been resting in an
account for many years which should have been used, by
the way. Now, we are at the bottom line, we have
approximately, 1.6 million dollars in there and we would
like this Council to allow us to do a study regarding
that and to include that in our report. And, I think
there has been a study...
V/M Stein: Thelma, I just want to say... you weren't there.
We had a Committee report which the Council already
accepted as to... in other words, not etched in stone, but
they suggested a site, they turned down a couple of sites
that we had originally thought and they suggested a new
site which requires the school to go along with us and we
seem to think that they will go along with us as a
multi -purpose. That is a question I wanted to ask you.
You see, we are coming back to the same thing now. We
can tell the State that's what we're doing, but as you
know, in the City of Tamarac, you cannot spend a million
dollars at random.
Thelma Brown -Porter: No, I realize that. But we need to
do a little bit more than that for the State if we are
going to propose a multi -purpose center, then we must
allot a certain amount of money for that, at least
in...in the form that you will not spend more than
x-dollars if approved by referendum of whatever the
necessary...
V/M Stein: Well, that's alright ... in other words, I do
not think that we have any problems saying that we will
spend a million or whatever number we're going to pick.
It's not going to exceed that, not going to be under that
but they have to understand that if the people of the
City turn it down, it's just not going to be there.
That's it.
C/M Stelzer: And then what happens?
City Manager Kelly: May I.
Page 20 ,J
12/17/87
V/M Stein: Then we're in violation again.
Thelma Brown -Porter: We would be in violation.
C� Manager Kelly: Alright, following up on that question.
If we simply identify in the report that we have the
multi -purpose center, is what we would like to do to
address the recreation element and we can identify the
source of funding where it would come, obviously, we can
not commit without that referendum and election. That
will suffice though?
Thelma Brown -Porter: Yes. As long as we have the funding
in place, we've recognized the needs, if the resident's
turn that down on referendum, that puts us back into a
deficiency situation, however. We would be deficient.
C/Id Stelzer: And then what? Then what happens?
Thelma Brown -Porter: We have a deficiency and we have to
address that deficiency one day or another, if it's this
month, fine, or if it's a year from now, fine.
V/M Stein: No, but, what ,jack's asking, does that auto-
matically put us in default that we can not give out any
permits?
Thelma Brown -Porter: Yes. Yes.
V/M Stein: That's what we want to know.
Thelma Brown -Porter: Yes.
V/11%1 Stein: In other words, if the people of the City turn
down the center, I'm not saying what kind of center, but
a center, it doesn't make any difference. We have to of
course, let them know that this is part of the overall
plan of the planning of the City. You can't just be a
center. That's...That's I think the purpose. They have
to know that as a consequence, if they turn down, whether
it's this center or another center like it, or whatever,
if they turn it down, that we will not be able to issue
any permits and we will have to issue a moratorium on any
further development.
Thelma Brown --Porter: And that could happen and I would
say it very well will happen.
City Manager Kell An I...I sit on the Growth Management
Sub -Committee oche Broward County's Charter Review
Commission. Sitting on that panel of people like Roy
Rog�3rs from ARVIDA, Paul Angelo from Coral Ridge
Properties and they are echoing the same concerns.
Saying look, we know we've got to do this but Broward
County's got to bail us out too and build some schools or
other facilities, or, if they won't do it, your virtually
shutting down those developments and they are very
concerned about that. So, it's not a small concern at
all. It's a very serious concern.
V/14 Stein: No, I think that with whats happened all of a
sudden, this always happens, is that, as Commissioner
Stein said, it's awfully funny that we have to give
answers all of a sudden. This is a very complicated
situation. We have been after the School Board for a
school as you well know, and, had they said yes, then
maybe some plans for our center would have been put in
place. If we had a school in Section 27, we probably
Page 21 /
12/17/87
would put the facility in 27 because it would of made
sense to have them all together. They say well, you
know, your surrounded by an adult community what do we
need a school there for? But we do need a school and the
State's going to require us to have some form of school.
You can't exist with 50 some odd or 60,000 people and the
age is starting to drop dramatically on the new people
that are coming into Tamarac without providing for
sufficient schooling and the State's going to say, hey,
give us some land for school or provide land for school.
And, as I was saying, it's getting more and more
complicated to comply with what the State wants us to do
and what we've been doing and what we are able to do. I
think, what I'll do first is any of the Commissioners
that want to ask questions and then I'll go back to
Council to see if they have any and of course then we'll
go to the public and open that up. Any further questions
by the Commissioner's at this moment? If not Councilmen,
anything further? You have one. C/M Rohr.
C/M Rohr: How is this going to impact on the Sabal Palm
Golf Course?
Thelma Brown -Porter: Well, Sabal Palm Golf Course currently
is viewed as open space and recreation on our Land Use Plan as
a golf course.
C/M Rohr: Right. But in 88. The covenant is over.
Thelma Brown -Porter: In 88 their lease runs out. We have
not changed our concept of that being open space and recrea-
tion.
C/M Rohr: And that's part of our required open space for
the City, Right?
Thelma Brown -Porter: No, Sir. No, Sir. We are over and
above our requirement.
C/M Rohr: No? Oh, I thought we were .... okay.
Thelma Brown -Porter: Well the reason that we are over and
above our requirement is that when we bring those S-1
properties to you for approval when development projects
coma about, those S-1 parcels are counted as part of our
open space. The golf course is not part of our required
green area; however, we have calculated it as part of our
existing open space green area. If Mr. Stackhouse wanted
to come in to change that to a use other than a golf
course, he would have to go through amendment process as
he did last year.
C/M Rohr: Okay. Thank you.
V/M Stein: Alright? I'll open this to the public. Mr.
Alper.
Carl Alper: Carl Alper, Resident. I don't have the bene-
fit of the material which Mr. Anderson gave out but I
have a couple of general questions and one of them is,
the Comprehensive Plan, we had a Comprehensive Plan for
many years. The Council has adopted and the County has
approved it. Are there tremendous changes in that
Comprehensive Plan now?
�l
F1
1
Page 22
12/17/37
Thelma Brown -Porter: Yes. The Comprehensive Plan that you
are speaking of came about in 1977 and the submittal
documents have changed tremendously. We have to do a
data and analysis which we did not have to do in the
former plan. We had to do goals and objectives in that
plan but it was not a requirement to carry out those
goals and policies. so, therefore, all you had was a
wish book except for the Land Use Element and certain
transportation elements where you would have to come back
to the City to get those Land Use Plans amended if you
wanted to change the Land Use. But, today's
Comprehensive Plan is very detailed. You must have
x-amount.....
City Manager Kelly: Excuse me, Thelma, would you speak up
a little louder and we'll talk to the people in the back room,
too.
Thelma Brown -Porter: You have to have x-amount of land
area set aside for recreation. You have to have x-amount
of planned transportation district's.... You have to have
your water sewer available, services in place. You have
to have your facilities in place and that puts the burden
now on Council to have the capital improvement element in
place and the funding allotted for, which was not the
same requirement of the document passed. That passed
Capital Improvement Plan was a wish list and no one was
enforcing it. Today's requirement is that the Capital
Improvement Plan be in place. The facilities be in place
and the funding calculated for.
Carl Alper: That was the second question I had. Would
the Capital Improvement Plan have to more than a plan,
has to be underground or in space, in a place, before
any... any... and is there a time limit on when the capital
improvements have to be put in the ground.
Thelma Brown -Porter: Now, a Capital Improvement Plan is
different than a Capital Improvement Element.
Carl Alper• Yes.
Thelma Brown -Porter: Okay. The Capital Improvement Plan,
our City Council has already taken a look at and they've
already addressed those subjects at our budget hearing.
The needs as the department heads see it. The Capital
Improvement Plan addresses those items almost verbatim,
but requires that the funding sources be in place or
plans be made to master plan that, but, does not require
that those facilities be put in the ground on x-year.
Only that you set aside the capital money for that, for
the future expansion. Without the money being there, then
there will be no projects approved.
Carl Alper: That answers the second question. The third
and last question I have,it's with
regards to park
and
recreation. Do they ...
does the County
or the State
require that there be
more than a
sufficient number
of
open area or do they
require park
and recreation
facilities?
Thelma Brown -Porter:
They break it
down. It's done
by
population. You need
x-amount of
playgrounds per the
population. You need
x-amount of
ball fields. You
need
x-amount of community
centers per
population.
Carl Alper: Thank you.
Page 23 /
12/17/87
V/14 Stein: Yes, Marty.
Marty Riefs: Taking your invitation from before, I must...
excuse my... Sorry, I came in a little late and perhaps
missed the big impact. But, I was here certainly when
John had used as an example and was overwhelmed as to the
answer given by Mr. Anderson. And towards that end, I
was ... you know our community is unique as to the extent
of having a development order with the City approved by
the County, approved by the Court, we've prepaid for
capacity for all ... for naked portion of all of our
community. We have private streets. I'm wondering,
those whose circumstances are unique to ours and perhaps
with Mr. Anderson to have known that, maybe his answer
would have been different.
Thelma Brown -Porter: Unfortunately, Marty, you, along with
all the other court ordered properties that have higher
density or phase projects or payment breaks, so to speak,
are different. I have been in contact with the State of
Florida regarding all of our court ordered property and
how is it that we are going to deal with our court
ordered property. Since, we have to treat everyone
equally, you might be treated more equally with a court
order because you have some vested rights. The State has
not responded back to us as to how to look at your
project. We have to initially comply with consistency,
which means that consistent thoughts and avenues for the
capital facilities that you need to have in place all
have to be addressed in the same manner that we addressed
every other project. But, the bottom line is, three
months from now the State may come back and say, okay,
the court order prevails and they have some vested rights
and this is how you'll view that project. But, as it is
right now, you are being treated the same as every other
development.
V/M Stein: Any further questions from the public? Yes, John.
City Manager Kelm On the drainage issue, you mentioned
the fact that all Cities are going to be looking toward
funding sources.
Thelma Brown -Porter: That's correct.
City Manager Kelly: C/M Stelzer's talked about our imple-
menting something locally. Fie was indicating we have
some monies available to undertake such a study.
Thelma Brown -Porter: Right.
City Manager Kelly: Do you feel that other Cities are
going to be ... I would suspect other Cities that are going
to be in this comparable position are going to be jumping
to adopt the ordinances, such as, Volusia County and
Tallahassee have already implemented in this regard. Has
there yet been indication by Broward County that they
will try to usurp that responsibility and do it for us
and ....
Thelma Brown -Porter: I've heard mention.
C/14 Stelzer: And take the money?
Page 24
12/17/87
Thelma Brown -Porter: I've heard mention that Broward
County would like to have an ordinance in place similar
to the one at Tallahassee. Most of the Cities that we
have been in contact with, we shared the ordinance that
C/ICI Stelzer provided us with, to each one of the Cities.
We are all currently wanting to have this ordinance
studied to see how it would impact our City. I believe
the last figure that we had of cost of consultant
services to do this was at $6,600.00. And that would be
an overall study to see what the impact of that ordinance
■ would be, the amount of existing structures that we have
and where our existing deficiencies are..
C/14 Stelzer: You have all the other information available?
Thelma Brown -Porter: Yes, sir. But, an ordinance is not
sound, in our opinion, until it has been reviewed by our
sources of consultant services and our attorney to see
how enforceable it would be. We certainly would not put
an ordinance in effect when we knew that it could not be
justified in court, you know, and supported. But, that's
only one of the issues where we have impact. It's one of
the serious ones that we need to look at currently.
Another issue is that...
C/M Stelzer: Excuse me. Do you want us to go ahead and
authorize, possibly at the next meeting, to finish this
study and spend the $6,600.00 or $6,700.00?
Thelma Brown -Porter: Well it's $6,600.00 and the monies are
available through my Growth Management Act. And, I would
very much encourage this Council to allow the spending of
that $6,600.00 to see what the impact of this type of
ordinance would be. Most other Cities are doing the same
thing.
C/M Stelzer: Do you want to put it on the next agenda?
Do you want to put it on the next agenda, John?
Thelma Brown --Porter: Well, I don't need necessarily to
get the approval of Council. The money has been allotted
to study all of the needs....
City Manager Kelly: Do you want me to go ahead?
V/M Stein: Yea. He can order. We don't need Council we
have the money.
Thelma Brown -Porter: Yea. We have the money. What Council
did of r this Growth Ianagement Act was to approve the
documents to go up to Tallahassee which states that you
have appointed a representative, your City Manager and
myself, to review those people that will be hired as
consultant services.
V/M Stein: John, I have another thought. Something was
passed over but I'm sure that the certain areas is
probably more important than development. A lot of our
wastewater lines are deteriorating. There was a lot of
them built out of red terre Gotta are just collapsing, as
you well know. We've replaced a tremendous amount in the
past 4 yaars, but, there is still a lot...I haven't heard
the report yet, but I know that we need a lot of
replacements. The thought occurs to me....
C/14 Stelzer: Is that drainag,2 or sewage.
Page 25
12/17/87
C/I.9 Hoffman: Sewage.
V/114 Stein: Sewage. Yea. No, not the drainage the sewers.
That's the sewer lines. The thought occurs to me, and I
don't know, this is ... Mr. Dick Doody's going to have come
back with this one. We have available bond money, which
we haven't.... The original bond issue for waste water was
$16,000,000.00, we only borrowed $12,500,000.00, or
something like that. if that be a factor, I mean a true
factor, it would seem that rather than impose any further
taxes, etc., that the easiest way to be would to be
to...I don't have,...I have no idea what we are talking
about in dollars. Obviously, if it's a couple hundred
thousand, you are not going to do it by bond. But, if
it's a big deal that has to be done in order to comply
with the State's requirement, then your not going to be
able to it patchwork, you are going to have to go out and
do the job and if we are going to have to do the job, I
personally think, that we still have a valid bond
allowance remaining which we have not used. And that
might be an avenue, I'm not saying that is the way, but,
it's something to be explored. It's been passed legally
and it's for that purpose, wastewater.
Thelma Brown -Porter: We also have a traffic impact fee
that we charge each developer as they come into the City
based on acres or square foot of that building site. I
am not aware of that money being used in the City, ever
since I'm here. That money does need to be looked at and
projects do need to be reviewed for use of that money.
Now, it is so very important that we start determining
what projects we are going to fund from that since that
money, if we do not use it, has to be returned to the
developer.
V/NI Stein: By the way, you know, you do not want
public- aly. Some of that park and recreation money
awfully close to the time that if we don't do it,
going to have to give it back.
Thelma Brown -Porter: That's correct.
to do this
is
we are
V/IK Stein; We just can't keep it forever, you know. We
took the money for park and recreation, if you never do
it, then you have to return it. If someone has the funny
idea that if you do it eventually the City ends up with
it, but, that is not the way the law was written. Or, is
if you don't use it, then you've got to give it back and
I think that's why .... I think part of the survey, I know
the State wants everything. But, I think for the City,
that we ought to have a review of the staff telling us
what projects are priority, where there are funds which
have been laying around for those things, and let's do
it.
Thelma Brown -Porter: Well, I think that's what the depart-
ment heads tried to do during their review of their
budget was to show Council what capital projects they
needed to do. The problem was we did not have the
money....
V/19 Stein: Thelma, Thelma, let me say, I agree. Mr. Alper
gave you the key and I think we've been doing it. We
have been having 5 year, this is like the Russian 5 year
plan. We've had 5 year plans in this City from the day
we've started but we only just put them up there and
nobody ever listened to them, you know, 5 years we've had
all the sidewalks done and then 5 years later we started,
Page 26
1
1
12/17/87
hey, lets do it again. We should make these plans
meaningful. We have the funds. Not, just put them down
for fun, to comply with the law, that's what we did. We
had a 5 year plan and I challenge anybody to show me that
they ever did anything in these 5 year plans. They just
did them from year, to year, to year, to comply. We call
them our wish lists. Okay, I think now is the time, for
fact that the State's requiring and for our own people,
the time has come to stop patching and do, we have spent
a heck of a lot of money to have the state-of-the-art
water system, potable water system, wastewater plant,
let's do the job. We have the money. The point is we
have it. I do not feel great saying, hey, we have a
million six hundred thousand dollars in a park and
recreation fund because, nobody can play ball on the bank
book. Alright? Not one kid can go any place on a bank
book. If we need the thing and we have the money and
we've collected the money from the developer's, let's do
it and let's do it correctly and that's the point. I
think that the purpose here, that the State is prodding
us is great, because maybe, we will do the things that we
were supposed to do without the prodding, in order to
comply. And I would suggest for the City Manager, that
the Council, of course, does not get involved in that
except for the funds, that your staff reconsider, as
Thelma said, what you suggested for the budget time and
come back with some projects that are really priority, go
through them and then we can do this. Yes, Sir.
C/M Hoffman: In line with what you said, I agree completely,
but, I would like the City Manager and the City Attorney
to let us know what we can legally do with the monies
we're holding. In other words, can we put lights in, can
we put streets in, can we put ball fields in. We want to
know what we can legally do with that money.
C/ed Stelzer : Syd.
V/1-1 Stein: Yea.
C/14 Stelzer: The only problem that nobody has discussed
is that we are ham strung by the Charter. We can't...we
are ham strung by the Charter. We can not spend anything
that the people say they don't want us to spend. And
that's where we are going to have difficulty. If you
want to spend a million one to fix up, or a million two
to fix up the recreation center with conjunction with the
school, if some of our old fogies that live around town
say we haven't got children why should we put up
recreation facilities, you are not going to put them up.
And, that's a problem that is in the Charter and the only
way you can address it is to take it out of the Charter.
Now, that is something that has to be done I'm afraid.
C/M Hoffman: I believe, you correct me if I'm wrong, ,Tack.
I believe we can spend up to about $450,000.00 without
going to referendum.
C/M Stelzer: You can only spend 2 1/2% of your budget.
V/14 Stein: About $400,000.00.
C/M Hoffman: $400,000.00 and there are a lot of projects
we can go into at $400,000.00. We may not be able to
build a total recreation center, but there are lots of
things we can do for $400,000.00
Page 27
12/17/87
C/M Stelzer: That's just what your doing, your...
V/M Stein: C/M Hoffman reminds me of Walter Falck's pro-
posal to build this very same facility. We were going to
build it floor by floor every year with 400....
C/M Stelzer: That's not what Bruce is suggesting.
V/M Stein: No. I know.
C/M Stelzer: He says we do our little projects but, you
must remember that a big complex along side of the school
is something which is ideal. Look at this patchwork
recreation building we put up because the Charter would
not let us spend more than a couple of hundred thousand
dollars. So, now we got a building there which we can't
use. It doesn't function the way we wanted it.
C/M Rohr: May I get into this a minute....
C/M Stelzer; Don't ask me.
V/M Stein: Wait a minute. Wait a minute. Gentlemen, I
think that the debate is ill timed here. I think that
every person on the Council understands what we are
talking about as the audience does. The idea is that
we're strapped and we can't do a darn thing. We can
speak from now until midnight and you are still going to
have to go to referendum under the Charter. And you are
still going to have to go to referendum if you want to
take it out of the Charter. I mean, it works exactly the
same way. If you want to take it out the Charter or you
want to do it, you've got to go to referendum. I think
that the basic idea is, here we have the Planning
Commission, we have the Council, we have members of the
public and I think if we have enough public hearings and
meetings about this thing and let the public be our P.R.
people to go the people and say, hey, this is not for
kids just to play basketball, this is for the entire
City, it is also for the development, the tax base. You
see, when you get down there, there are other things.
Without the development, the tax base stays stagnant and
we are going to be taxed again. With the tax base
spreading, even those people who may never go into this
recreation facility, will use it. I keep on reminding a
lot of people that they pooh-pooh some of these things,
but, they use them. I know that every time we run buses
to Lantana to see a Christmas tree, we are over booked
about 400%. But, people do not understand that that's
part of the Park and Recreation facility. Without that
they couldn't go. They think that it's just a bus. So,
I think that the Council has tried as well as the City
Manager to spread the thing amongst the youth and the
senior citizen in proportion to what we have. We're not
saying everything... and by the way, this multi -purpose
center is not just for kids to play basketball in. We
are talking about painting classes, sculpture classes as
other Cities have where they can use these facilities for
everybody. It isn't just for kids. I mean that's the
point. But, unless we tell the people that, it's going
to get around that we are trying to spend a million and a
half dollars for the kids of the City and how many kids
do we have. The answer is they are all coming from Coral
Springs and using it and we won't. I think that's what
we have to do gentlemen. We all are here, I think we all
understand the problem, whether the State bothered us or
not, the time has come for us to take the money out of
the bank which has been laying there a hell of a long
Page 28
12/17/87
time and as I said, is in danger maybe of having to go
back to the developers if somebody starts an action,
unless we use it. i think we tell the people that, it's
not out of their pocket. We have the funds. It isn't
like we are asking them to put up the money. We have the
funds. Yes.
C/M Rohr: I was just going to reiterate that point, the
point is if we don't use it, we lose it. And, if it's
not going to cost anybody any money...
C/M Stelzer: That doesn't sound right. If you don't use
it, you lose it.
C/M Rohr: It's a matter of educating and telling the
publrrc. I don't see how....
C/M Hoffman: That's a slogan. Use it or lose it.
C/M Stelzer: That like to mention some .... you are only
picking on the recreation facilities which I disagree
with what Dick Doody wants to do. If we have to...the
State ... if the State says that you've got to spread
$13,000,000.00, if the State said you've got to spend a
million and a half, we are in a bind if the residents
say, no way. So, instead of trying to make a public
relations bit, that we need this, that the people of all
are going to use it, let's take the damn thing out of the
Charter and spend whatever we need. It's silly to have
it in the Charter in the first place that we are strapped
with 2 1/2% of our budget before we can do anything. if
we have to go $13,000,000.00 to fix up Land Section 7, if
the people had asked the same question that I asked, you
mean to say we have to spend $13,000,000.00 without a
prospect of one person coming in. They'll say why should
we spend the money, they'll turn you down on your
referendum, you can't go for your bonds and you're stuck.
So, we should take out of our Charter and push for that.
To take out that restriction under the City can not
spend what they need. We are not playing around with
this, we are not building airports or something like
that, we are building what the City needs and required to
by the State. Let's get that out of the Charter and we
can do whatever we have to without being strapped.
That's what I think we ought to push.
V/M Stein: I hope we are not going to debate the referen-
dum, I hope we are....
Chairman Cantor: I think I've got a question I need to
---�-raise.
-
V/M Stein: What ... then, Cantor, first.
Commis is oner Cantor.
TAPE 3
Commissioner Cantor: Since, I've heard my good friend,
Jack, talk, you know,doing what's absolutely practical
from a business point of view is easy, because you have a
business sense of knowledge. But, doing it in a
political sense is not that easy and to just
dictatorially decide your going to come in on one basis
to remove something from the Charter, other things were
tried to be be removed from the Charter just recently and
there are some watchful people looking around to jump on
it and give it a dirty name. My recommendation would be
to do it twofold. Give it to them on the basis that this
is what we want to do, we have the money to do it and if
we don't, then we have point two, we'd like to then take
Page 29
12/17/87
it out of the Charter for the purpose that we can't come
back each time and talk to you. Give them on the basis
that we want you to say yes, then, you say, this is what
we'd like to do because we want to go ahead find and
search or we are going to lose the money, you may take it
out of the realm of politics for the watchful ones who
will start slandering you and your going to get
slanderous names. Period.
CIM Hoffman: Mr. Chairman, may I suggest this is a matter
of mechanics...
V/M Stein: Yea, I know...I am not going to let the dis-
cussion, how we do it ... wait a minute ... we are going to
have many more meetings...
Commissioner Beutner: It's only one question...wait a
minute...
VIM Stein: Wait a minute, Emil. Hold it one minute.
Commissioner Beutner: Alright.
V/I4 Stein: We are going to have many more meetings. Thelma
is going to come back with some numbers that are
meaningful. Right now we have $13,000,000.00, we don't
need $13,000,000.00 tomorrow morning. We do have CIAC's
available, we do have funds available....
C/1.1 Stelzer: We need $7,000,000.00 more.
V/M Stein: Huh?
C/M Stelzer: I think we have $6,000,000.00 in CIAC's.
V/M Stein: I think we have $6,000,000.00 in CIAC's.
C/M Stelzer: Bill, don't we? Less already?
V/14 Stein: See, Bill takes care of that, Jack.
C/M Stelzer: How much do we have now, 4?
Bill Greenwood, Director of Utilities/Engineering: We have
1.4 in the sewer CIAC and six to eight hundred thousand
is water.
C/M Stelzer: Thwn you only got 2 1/2 million? Well now you
mean $10,000,000.00 only, not $13,000,000.00, alright.
V/:d Stein: Also, by the way, I had suggested, Dan, I don't
know if you were here, part of Land Section 7, we're in a
contract in which we happen to be lucky. one developer
owns almost the whole southern part and he is willing to
advance, which he already has agreed to, to install the
infrastructure and get the money back as it's developed.
!alright, now that's another plan that you ... we can submit
to the State on that. See, it isn't just going out
getting $13,000,000.00 because if you had to do that, I'd
say we were wasting our time here. I think Thelma has to
coma back with some of these things she's talking about
some of the proposed plans and then we can go in deeper
than that. t4r. Beutner, you have something to say?
Commissioner Beutner: Why can't we propose in two places
as pct. See, under the amount ... stay under the amount
required by Charter.
Page 30
12/17/87
V/M Stein: Can't do it. That is called subterfuge and
fraud Ar. Beutner and I...
C/M Stelzer: You want to build the first floor and then
the second, next year.
V/M Stein: Yea, yea. The second floor, that's right. We
already went through this once.
Unidentified Speaker: Build the second floor first.
C/14 Stelzer: No, you build the outside floor first. Start
on the fifth floor and build down.
V/M Stein: I think that the discussion, because it's...you
notice how lay people moved away from all the
technicalities even though their not asking any questions
they rather discuss what they understand this happens all
the time. But, that's good. I think that what we have
to recognize is, that the largest tract outside of Kings
Point, whether it's developed within the court order or
the new State, this developer will be there for us to
negotiate with. So, that's the easiest part, he's there
and he wants a development, he's not going to stop. The
only big place we have is Land Section 7. Okay? And,
when we get all these plans back, and we know, then we
will go ahead. I think the most important part is to
understand that we can no longer have 5 year plans which
are wish lists. I think that's really what this whole
meeting is about. For years we have been saying, oh, so
the State wants us to do it, here's what we're going to
do. The State never bothered us and we never did
anything. I think the time has come, especially under
the present administration in the State, where they are
saying, hey, you are not going to come to us, we don't
have any money for you, you do it or don't develop. And,
that's going to be, not only in Tamarac, that's going to
be in the entire State of Florida. If they have to close
down development, they are threatening to do it.
They're threatening absolutely to do it. I mean we're
talking about economic development all over the place and
the State now comes back and says, wait a minute, you
only can do it if you have the money to put the
infrastructures in, otherwise, you're not going to do it
because we don't have the money that if you don't have
the money there's going to be chaos. And, in some manner
I agree with them. If there's no money and there's no
way to do it, there's not sense letting, and excuse Marty
if I use ... there's no sense letting a Kings Point in with
5 thousand units if you're not going to be able to supply
them with the necessary infrastructure, roads, etc.,
because you are going to have chaos eventually. And, I
think that's ... you know, as much as I disagree with the
State's position because of the money, I think that
they're sound in what they're doing and I think in some
manner, it will work out for our benefit. We may not be
around, but it work for our better. Yea, Thelma.
Thelma Brown -Porter: In addition to that, some of the
impacts also, that we will be faced with is, for
instance, in the Fire Department, the number of personnel
is based upon the number of people that you have coming
into your City. So, it may very well come to light that
we need another fire engine or we need to hire 3 more
additional firefighters in order to take care of the
population that we have. So, it's also going to impact
the number of people needed to protect the City of
Tamarac. %
Page 31 1
12/17/87
C/M Stelzer: A domino affect.
V/M Stein: Instead of down, up.
C/M Stelzer: Everything go up.
V/M Stein; Yes.
Carl Alper; Alper, A-L-P-E-R. One thing I want to say
that with regard to the adult information and recreation,
there's a dance tonight for the adults. The other thing
I wanted to say is, with regard to really great problems
of the Chapter improvement system and the new concept
site plan, have we had any input or can we have any input
of this terrible problem from the Broward League of
Cities? Have they discussed this at all or presented any
information for us?
Thelma Brown -Porter: On the Growth Management Act?
V/M Stein: No. No.
Carl Alper: On the ... on the two problems already.
The Comprehensive Plan and the .....Capital Improvements
Plan. There are great problems.
C/M Rohr: I might answer that. I think, Bruce and I have
been attending their legislative committee, this is a
committee that pass some proposals to go before the
legislature. And, I don't think they had anything.
V/I4 Stein: They don't have...
C/M Rohr: No. They haven't gotten into it yet, now, that
doesn't mean that they won't because....
V/M Stein: I want to tell you something. I want to tell
you something. Let's not think it's easy when you go to
the State. I have got to laugh about this. I guess some
of you professionals know. We got a great report on the
MPO that the Broward Delegation has given the MPO three
minutes to state their case. Three minutes. Now, can
you picture the metropolitan when they're presenting
their case to the Broward Delegation in three minutes and
having anybody understand what in the heck they're
talking about? But, that's all the time they have, you
see. People think that there's a continuity from the
City to the County, it really doesn't work that way.
Each guy is saying I take care of my own little pot, you
take care of your pot. And, if you don't believe it, look
what happened to the one percent sales tax which we were
supposed to split, half for the State, half for the
County and the Cities and we would be in pretty good
shape if that happened. When it finally got passed, all
the money went to the State. Not a penny is going to the
County and the Cities. So, if you have any venturous
ideas that they sit and worry about us there, please,
don't have that idea because they don't.
City Manager Kelly: Mr. Vice Mayor.
V/M Stein: Yes.
City Manager Kelm I would like to pick up on the ... the
political observation made to me by Mr. Cantor. We, the
Council, Planning Commission, are now aware of the thrust
that this is going to have on us and what this means to
Page 32
12/17/87
us, that we've got to bite the bullet and move ahead. We
still have a responsibility, you know, in order to make
that ... those decision making viable, for you,
respectively to make, to educate the public about what
this is going to mean to us. It's a very significant Act
and has been touched upon by League of Cities has talked
about it, they've had people there, but, have largely
been ignorad and dismissed as, oh, there's another
attempt, good idea, great, let's put it on the books and
ignore it. We don't have that luxury anymore and, you
know, we will undertake a program to educate the local
citizenry so that we can move ahead to take the positions
that you are going to have to take.
V/M Stein: John, I really think is, for everybody here,
the Commissioners and the Council, we need this chewed up
a little. Alright. We've heard a general thing but
really, it's very general to us. And we need a plan of
how this City can accomplish. Okay? That's what we're
taking about. In other words, I personally, would like
to know what do we actually have to do to comply with
what the State wants us to do. Alright? Are there any
alternatives to this plan? Do we have A, B or C or do we
have to do A and that's... you can't do anything about it.
I think if we then have that, and we got ... then we can
discuss how we're going to do it. If we need a million
dollars or we need $200,000.00, can we float a bond for
it, do we have money in CIAC's. These are things which
we will attack then, as soon as we know what we are
talking about. Right as this moment, we have a lot of
technical reports, which most of us don't really
understand and we haven't had a chance to digest it.
But, I think that it's great. It's riled us up to the
fact that we do not have too much time to comply,
otherwise, we are going to have big problems. I am sure
every other City is in the same bind that we are, but, I
think that your job now is to get your staff to come back
and say, by such and such time, we have to do this. And,
by such and such time we have to do this and then we will
then probably have another meeting like this and start
digesting and then we can go out to the public and say,
hey, this is the best plan we can come up from the comply
and this is what we think you ought to do to help us do
it.
C/11 Stelzer: What's the next step now.
Unannounced Speaker: Will minutes be available of this
meetings, so what we....
V/M Stein: Yes, there will. Definitely.
C/14 Stelzer: What's the next step, then?
Thelma Brown -Porter: The next step to this act is that we
will have a Workshop meeting again with the Planning
Commission and the City Council with the State coming
down reviewing our data and analysis. What I would
expect would take place in the next month or so, is that
we would have a detailed report from our Finance Director
regarding the financial impact of the projects that the
department heads have submitted. He has the information
available to him that none of the rest of us have. So, I
think the next step is to go over that Capital
Improvement Plan with Mr. Burroughs and the City Manager,
outlining those projects that the departments have
requested and then for him to come up with a method of
funding.
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12/17/87
V/M Stein: Okay.
C/M Stelzer: Then the next meeting will be scheduled when -
you're ready?
Thelma Brown -Porter: Actually, the State was going to come
down yesterday, but, because it was Hanukkah, they called
to postpone it to the first week of January.....
C/M Stelzer: They're not Jewish. The State is Jewish, they
won't let you put up Menorahs.
Thelma Brown -Porter: Well. Anyway, they're supposed to
be scheduling with us the first week in January.
V/14 Stein: Okay.
C/M Stelzer: Alright. At least we know we have another
meeting.
V/M Stein: Commissioner Levine.
Commissioner Levine: Yea. I see on ... that we're redoing
University Drive from om Commercial to Southgate and I see
here there's drainage problem areas that are right
adjacent to the University Drive. While they're doing
that are we cooperating with them or working with them so
that we can do it in conjunction?
City Manager Kelly: That's identifying 76th Avenue for
one... yes.
V/M Stein: As a matter of fact, I keep on forgetting that
you don't come ... when I say you, I mean a lot of people.
We funded drainage for 76th Avenue and the abutting areas
there.
Commissioner Levine: Yea, but, there's three or four here.
Have they all Seenfunded?
V/I,4 Stein: I can't answer you all. I know ... I know the
big one is the Heathgate/Sunflower which is 76th Avenue.
Commissioner Levine: I know, but, I'm just seeing here on
the plan, maybe, our engineering...can help us out on that.
City Manager Kelly: We have coordinated that. Mr. Greenwood
has submitted to me today, that I signed off on, the
advertising for two of those projects.
V/14 Stein: They're being done. In other words, once again,
you know, we're back to the same situation. There's only
one pocket and every time we say we got to take an
emergency, which this is, because University is being
done, we have to say where will we take the money from.'
Alright? what I'm saying is, understand, and it's great
to say, hey, we forgot, we have to do the drainage on
these three streets because University's coming through,
that's fine. We have to do it. But, we have to first
find out where do we get the funds to do it from?
Because, you know, we can not have deficit spending in a
City. We have to have the funds available and that's
what we are doing right now. I mean a, Bill Greenwood
and Mike Couzzo have been coming in with these things to
us and from day to day we have been sort of shuffling up
and back and seeing where, who gets what first.
Page 34
11
I
12/17/87
Thelma Brown -Porter: That's going to be a thing of the
past, by the way. You know the inconsistency with who
gets funding first is going to be an item that this
Council will not....
V/14 Stein: Once you do this, you'll... that's right.
At this time, Mayor Hart attended the meeting.
Thelma Brown --Porter: The important key to this whole consis-
tency is, that the department heads of other departments
have to justify and verify to the Planning Division that
these projects are completely necessary. When they
submit their project to us, we send it through an
evaluation, through our two consultants and through our
own staff. Before it gets to you, it has to be justified
and verified to be a project that needs to be done. And,
only at that time, will it become a project in our
Comprehensive Plan.
V/M Stein• Okay.
Thelma Brown -Porter: The departments heads are not going
to like Planning very much and we are expecting a lot of
debate regarding our intervention into something that
they might consider to be a priority, but, there are
lists of priorities and verifications that they have to
submit to us and then we will determine through our
consultants, whether or not they are needed.
V/M Stein: Now, the Mayor just came here. I think he will
be able to say Good Afternoon,....he came in time. If
there's no further discussion, I think we'll close this
joint session. Thank you.
This meeting was ADJOURNED at 3:00 P.M.
CAROL E. BARBUTO, CITY CLERK
"This public meeting was promulgated at a cost of $264.60 or $7.35 per
copy to inform the general public, public officers and employees of
recent opinions and considerations of the City Council/Planning
Commission of the City of Tamarac."
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