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HomeMy WebLinkAbout1980-05-29 - City Commission Reconvened Regular Meeting MinutesCITY OF TAMARAC, FLORIDA REGULAR CITY COUNCIL MEETING MAY 29, 1980 (Reconvened from 5/28/80) CALL TO ORDER: Mayor Falck called the meeting to order on Thursday, May 29, 1980, at 1:30 P.M. ROLL CALL: PRESENT: Mayor Walter W. Falck Vice -Mayor Helen Massaro Councilman Irving M. Disraelly Councilman Irving Zemel Councilwoman Marjorie Kelch ALSO PRESENT COMMUNITY DEVELOPMENT City Manager, Edward A. Gross City Attorney, Arthur M. Birken Assistant City Clerk, Carol Evans Clerk/Steno., Mimi Reiter 36. Tamarac Jewish Center - Discussion and possible action on: a) Site Plan - for synagogue addition and new school. b) Water and Sewer - Developers Agreement c) Landscape Plan - AGENDIZED BY CONSENT SYNOPSIS OF ACTION: a) Tabled to meeting of 6/3/80, b) approved with stipulation that if guaranteed revenues are modified, this agreement Mould, in turn, be modified accordingly, c) approved. a) Mr. Jack Weiner, President of the Tamarac Jewish Center, stated all the requirements are accepted and will be followed with no exceptions, including the sprinkler system. Mr. Weiner also agreed that air conditioning and other equipment on the roof of the original building will be covered so as not to be visible from any side. C/W Kelch brought up the question of parking requirements, to which C/M Disraelly replied that the present ordinance permits 25% parking on grassed areas. V/M Massaro stated that it is permitted on grassed areas but not in setback areas. It is not permitted in any parking areas except so many feet back from the property line. Mr. Cross explained that B-6 and I-1 prohibit, under normal circumstances, park- ing in the setback areas. However, for overflow parking in religious uses, it is allowed. To V/M Massaro's question as to whether this is overflow or required parking, Mr. Cross replied it is a combination of both. They have 20 additional parking spaces and 57 grass spaces which means that of the required parking, 30 of those spaces would be on grass and 20 would be additional. V/M Massaro felt the Jewish Center required a waiver to the city parking requirements and a request for such a waiver must be presented to Council. Mr. Weiner indicated he would amend his original request. C/M Disraelly MOVED that a request has been made for a waiver of the required parking space in paved area, and that the requirement is fulfilled by the additional permission for the shortage of paved area to be permitted in the grassed area. The MOTION was amended to waive the required parking of 37 spaces in the paved parking area because of the fact that it is a religious edifice and that there is no way that they can meet the full requirement anyway. C/M Zemel SECONDED the motion. VOTE: ALL VOTED AYE. C/M Disraelly inquired if they plan to pave the median on their side of 57th Street in order to protect the medians. agreed with the curbing and all around the median. Mr. Jewish Center,said that it be purchasing the property next 30 days which. V/M Massaro requested that it be installed Martin Kane, of the Tamarac is very imminent that they will immediately adjacent within the will help the parking situation. se 5/29/80 mr -bv J C/M Disraelly said the median on the north side must still have extruded curbing around the bullnoses, and on the north side of the median for the length of their property which will protect that median and prevent accidents. Mr. Cross pointed out that a waiver to the parking require- ments of Chapter 18 of the Code, which was just approved, requires the application to be filed, a public hearing be- fore the Planning Commis s.i or; 'andthen a Public Hearing be- fore the City Council with proper advertisement for both. The City Attorney concurred, adding that if C ouncil finds there is an emergency, an emergency ordinance can be passed waiv ing the provisions of that section of the code. V/M Massaro inquired of Mr. Weiner if this item could be tabled until Tuesday when this parking waiver will be ready. Mr. Weiner concurred. Mayor Falck recommended the previous action granting the parking waiver be rescinded. V/M Massaro MOVED to rescind the previous action on the Tamarac Jewish Temple building relating to the parking waiver. C/M Disraelly SECONDED. VOTE: ALL VOTED AYE. C/M Disraelly said the landscape plan was omitted from the agenda and should be agendized. c) Landscape Plan C/M Disraelly MOVED that the landscape plan for Tamarac Jewish Center be AGENDIZED BY CONSENT. V/M Massaro SECONDED. VOTE: ALL VOTED AYE. C/M Disraelly said the landscape plan had been approved by the Beautification Committee. It appears that there are plenty of the proper types of trees and MOVED that the land- scape plan be approved, as submitted, with rust -free water. C/W Kelch SECONDED. VOTE: ALL VOTED AYE. b) Water and Sewer - Developers Agreement V/M Massaro indicated the developers agreement does vary a little from the original intent but that was because they had a two inch service and they now have gone to an inch and a half so that thie ar'lount of money paid, $4, 500 is in order, and the approved form was used, and MOVED that it be approved. C/M Disraelly SECONDED the motion. Mr. Birken suggested the motion be amended to add that it can be re -executed if the ;pity Council modifies its provisions pertaining to guaranteed revenuep. V/M Massaro agreed and C/M Disraelly concurred, as the SECOND. VOTE: ALL VOTED AYE, The Mayor noted the site plan, and specifically as it relates to the materials to be prepared by our City Attorney, will be called up Tuesday, June 3rd. 10. CONSENT AGENDA SYNOPSIS OF b) Balance of request for $500 approved ACTION: h) Tabled 6/11/80 j) Tabled 6/11/80 Mr. Gross said that no further work was done on these 3 items because work was being done on the budget. b) However, the City Manager advised the funds under this item must be approved because we have to close ern the Lewin Property, and the City Attorney felt that it should be a legal fee. -2- 5/29/80 by C/M Disraelly inquired if it is a legal fee or should it come out of the purchase of the lot.:.. V/M Massaro said it should come out of the same account as the cost of the lot did. Mayor Falck recommended the funds be taken from the City At- torney's budget and if something else needs to be done later a change can be made at that time. C/M Disraelly n14OVED. to approve the payment of the invoice of Alan Ruff dated May 23, in the amount of $500 from the City Attorney's funds. C/W Kelch SECONDED the motion.. VOTE: ALL VOTED AYE. h) & j) Mr. Gross asked that 10-� be tabled to next month's meeting. The Mayor said that Mitch Ceasar's telephone bill was not submitted and item 10-h should also be tabled. C/W Kelch moved that item 10-h not handled at the previous meeting in the amount of $41.96 and item 10-j be tabled until the next regular meeting. V/M Massaro SECONDED the motion. VOTE LEGAL AFFAIRS ALL VOTED AYE. 24. Emergency Ordinance - Temp. Ord. #764 - Discussion and possible action to enact an emergency ordinance amending Ordinance No. 80-35 Comprehensive Utility Regulations -- to modify the provisions per- taining to payment of contribution charges and guaranteed re- venues. Second Reading. SYNOPSIS OF ACTION: Tabled to meeting of 6/3/80. Mayor Falck stated this item is also related to item 45. C/W Kelch indicated her satisfaction with the conclusion of the two amend- ments proposed by the City Attorney and MOVFDthat Temp. 794 be approved on second reading as an emergency ordinance as amended. The City Attorney read Temp. Ord. #764r b' tide. tee advised the title should be corrected to read "Amending Ordinance 80-35" not "Section 80-35 of the Tamarac City Code". He stated that 2 proposed amend- ments were distributed and Mr. Rissman,one of the developers .who would be affected by these amendments, had provided some input yesterday which he has not reviewed. He inquired if Council had any questions. Mayor Falck said he received this information 8:30 A.M. yesterday May 28th and had not had an opportunity to review it as yet in view of the fact there was a Council meeting all day yesterday and last night. The Mayor indicated all back-up material should be distributed to provide for ample review time. The City Attorney said Council had also been given this morning copies of the proposed revised developer's agreement which they also may not have had an opportunity to review. The Mayor also indicated he had not received back-up material on item 55, T.ract 70, and found that the site plan was just hung this morning. C/W Kelch said she would like to reinstate her MOTION regarding acting on second reading of Temp. �,1764. When this was proposed the first time, and passed on first reading, she felt that the two amendments together answered both problems that were presented at that time and the inclusion of the fwo amendments would make it.a very workable and usable ordinance. She felt that the emergency still exists and that it can be handled as an emergency ordinance, and so ,.reiterated.her MOTION that.Temp. #7,64, emergency ordinance to approved on second And -final reading. V/M Massaro SECONDED the motion for discussion. C/M Disraelly agreed with the Mayor, stating he also had not had the opportunity to review the proposed amendments and Temp. Ord. #764. He said the City may be losing money, but in order to avoid a mistake he felt this ordinance could be passed on second reading on Tuesday. Also, item 45 has the same verbiage of this ordinance and was given a temporary number of 764A, so that Ctincil would have an opportunity to look at both to make a judgment. 5/29/80 -3- by TAP E 2 C/W Kelch stated she would prefer to rescind her MOTION in order to avoid it being defeated on this reading. V/M Massaro WITHDREW her SECOND. Mayor Falck said this item will be considered Tuesday at the reconvened meeting. The City Attorney reviewed the material covering this, item which included the two. ordinances passed on .first reading taking into account the changes that were read orally into the record and passed, proposed amendments #1 and #2, and a new master developer's agreement dated 5/27/80. Agreements subsequent to 5/27/80 have been or will be given to developers to have back to GDuncil before Tuesday's meeting for the projects that are on the agenda. There is some addi- tional language which the"City Engineer is preparing as a separate exhibit for Concord I and Concord II, enumerating the work which is proposed to be completed on Concord II, where they are constructing the improvements that have to be made to the existing pump stations. Mr. Rubin stated to abuncil that since those improvements will not only be serving Concord I and Concord II, that there will be a provision where they make the improvements upgrading and repairs immediately, and then there would be a formula for reim- bursement within 5 years if and when there are other developments which will benefit by that upgrading. Mr. Birken stated if it's not done within 5 years, it is not re- imbursable, and explained the $500 fee is for the Consulting Engineers to determine whether there is any work that needs to be done, or whether that work will benefit only the one project or whether it will benefit other undeveloped property. He added he would provide all related material to Cbuncil. Mr. Julian Bryan said he was prepared today with executed copies of the developers agreement dated 5/27/80 for Tamarac Gardens and Concord Village. The Mayor stated the development items would be called at the reconvened meeting Tuesday., June 3rd. 40. Drainage - Western Area of City - Report: Discussion and possible action, on recommcndat=ion of the City Enaincer to correct drainage problems if, IL,, SYNOPSIS OF ACTION: Tabled to meeting of 6/11/80 awaiting report from City Engineer. CONTINUED ON PAGE 5 -4 5/29/80 by THE FOLLOWING ITEM WAS REQUESTED IN VERBATIM BY C/M ZEMEL. MR. GROSS: As you know we have been talking about our drainage problem for a long time and what I requested of the City Engineer was that he give us a list of those areas which he felt are the most important areas for us to begin our drainage pro- grams on, to eliminate water from main arteries or main road- ways. I am not worried about the side streets yet. The first step is to take care of the main roads in the areas. There's a good chance that by taking care of these main roads, that we will take care of most of the side streets that are involved in the major flooding in the city. As I also told you in the re- port regarding the utility company, it is suspected that a large amount of infiltration that we were receiving during the heavy rainfalls also comes from the same areas where we have drainage problems, because of the fact that the water goes completely over the street and the water therefore has to drop into the sewer system and therefore becomes excess waters for the sewer system and adds to the infiltration problems. What we are looking for at this point is permission to go out and have the engineering done on all these areas so that we can come back to the Council with an estimated cost of what it would cost to do the whole thing; maybe it will take the whole $600,000, maybe it will only take a couple hundred thousand. I am not sure exactly. The engineer will have to explain that. And then the city will pick which areas they want to go ahead with and to start with immediately to alle- viate the drainage problems in the city. Since Larry is our ex- pert and our engineer, I will leave it to Larry now to technically tell you anything and answer any questions regarding this item. MR KEATING: I am waiting to field any questions you may you would like me to give you a brief synopsis of my of the flooding we saw last week, and what we should I will be glad to do that also at your request. MAYOR: Okay, go ahead. have. If impression do about it, MR. KEATING: Basically, as was pointed out in my memo, last Wednes- ay s rainfall was rather severe in that for a period of 2 to 3 hours we had rain falling at about 2-1/2 inches each hour. MAYOR: Is that a 25 year storm? MR. KEATING: No. The intensity was probably equivalent to a little bit in excess of a 10 year storm, but it did not carry on for a long enough period of time to be able to say it was a 10 year storm or a 25 year storm. It was a typical storm, however, but I do in- dicate in my memo that our current design criteria should take care of rainfall falling at that rate. When we look at what happens with this type of storm we see obviously the problems with traffic moving through our streets. We see problems on the main roads, we see problems through a lot of the main sub -divisions specifically sections 23 and 24; Westwood Drive adjacent to section 3 there and the 82nd street area in Sunflower is extremely bad. Also there are problems on Pine Island Road and on University Drive where if you get a heavy enough rainfall cars just stall out very, very frequently and it creates a hazard for traffic. Traffic be- comes immovable at some of these points. Basically, my recommenda- tions are that we begin to look at these areas not from the stand- point of correcting all of the problems that exist there, because I think it is beyond our ability to pay for it at the present time. I think we can, however, go in and make major repairs in the - well I could call it trunk line - which would be the main lines feeding out of subdivisions, and this should relieve the side areas suffi- ciently to I would say probably reduce the problem by 50% at least in those areas where we don't make improvements, and by 100% in the areas where we do make improvements and from that point we could see what we've got and make further recommendations as to proceed- ing in the future. MAYOR: How many homes actually get water? -5- 5/29/80 mr MR. KEATING: ooded. certainly of any. I have not had any confirmed reports of homes being I think I indicated in my memo if there were, we ought to be looking at that first but I am not aware V/M MASSARO: I am a little bit disturbed, with the report and the manner in which this has been handled. If you remember the last meeting that we discussed the drainage and the requirements for corrective work (buncil had indicated and we acted on it, that I would meet with Larry and with Mr. Nolan and discuss the areas that needed correction, and to get an overall picture so that it could be brought to Council, because Tony has at one time looked at the areas that needed correction. In fact there is a plan in City Hall somewhere where he had red lined the various areas but it was a matter of sitting down with our City Engineer to deter- mine if this was the right area to go, because we wanted to be sure and just attach; or try to attack those areas that would do the most good in the city, but not to completely spend the money in one area without picking up some of the real bad spots in other areas. You, Mr. Mayor, refer to something east of 441 that actually is an extreme hazard, that people are very vulnerable there to be- ing flooded, or in fact some I think have had water. MAYOR: They had this last time around. V/M MASSARO: And we have another area that, the street that Jack Rose lives on. This man has really suffered over the years, and some corrective work should be done there. Maybe it is included, but there are certain areas that need immediate attention and this was not done. I was by-passed completely. Nobody sat down with me to discuss these things. We.did not discuss any of this with Tony Nolan and consequently they have come in here and I have to blame Mr. Gross for it. He was here; he knew what Council - what in- structions .Council had given and he has completely disregarded it. Now I can't keep my finger on things for you and I am the liaison for this and I am trying real hard to watch it this time so that we can't have a recurrence of what has occurred before. We depended before completely on others, to give us information. I have all the faith in the world in Larry. I have no problem in working with Larry but I do have a problem it appears in working with Ed recently and I don't like it and I won't tolerate it. It just has to stop. I don't think that this is the way to get the best for the city. I think if Council decides on something, if Council doesn't want me to do something fine, just say so. I'll do what you want me to do. I don't care what I am working on. I'll work on .anthing that is assigned to me, but when I am working on it I want to know everything that is going on within that. I am going to give you another example. This business on 88th Avenue. It was at one time thought that we were going to spend between $80,000 and $100,000 to make this correction. That's across the street. V/M MASSARO: That's right. The first figures that were coming in were in that neighborhood and it was definitely turned down by the man who owns Plaza Del Sol and there was no way in God's world we could have made him do it unless we simply didn't allow him to do anything up there and you felt it was unfair to hold up. And it was unfair to hold up the other people from getting their license because of trying to put pressure on them. Consequently, the re- sult would have been that we would have had to pick up that tab. I stayed in there all the way to where we don't have to spend a dime to do this. The last thing that was to be done I wanted to know how much did the City face possibly having to pay and I asked. I asked Ralph Thissen for this information. Ralph did not give me the information. When it was time to come to Council and it hadn't been brought up or passed out, I again called Ralph and said "Where is the information I asked you for?" because in my mind was the possibility of recovering this money from the owner of the property, which since has come to pass, but when I questioned Ralph I was told he was instructed by Mr. Gross not to copy me. I was one who asked for the damn information, not Mr. Gross. It didn't even occur to him to get this information, but to be told that Mr. Gross instructed him not to give me this information, I can't work this way. I just can't work this way, because the thoughts are mine. I don't mind who gets.... I wouldn't bring it out even, if it wasn't that these things keep creeping in. If somebody else can come up with these ideas and can think of these things ahead of me, more power to them or I'll hand them, but in no way am I going to sit back here and try to do my job properly and try to do the best for the city, if I have got a stumbling block all along the way. 5/29/80 mr C/M ZEMEL: For the first time in the history of my acquaintance- ship with Mr. Gross, I am going to defend him. I don't think that any Council person should be going to engineers, the public works directors, or to clerks or anybody else for information. I believe that the City Manager is responsible for every administra- tive action that is taken or not taken in the city and we will hold him responsible, but by going to the different department heads all we are creating is a chaos which the charter tells us we must not because we are legislators and not administrators. Now, for five and a half years I have been hearing the same story about we are going to do research, we are going to investigate, we are going to have plans, we are going to have programs, we are going to do all kinds of things. And for five and a half years the flooding is just as bad as it was now as it was then. Now, our city engineer said a little while ago that we didn't even have a 10 year storm last year, it wouldn't even be considered a 10 year storm. Well I would like to tell you that I stood up to my knees again like I did with the City Manager five and a half years ago in water in Section 24; then I went to Section 23 and stood again like that and the question of whether or not the city has the ability to pay - the City has to have the ability to pay. They must have the ability to pay. I don't care where they get the money. First of all, the $600,000 is laying gathering interest. I don't know why it is lay- ing all this time. It should be used, we should start using it. Correction improvements must be made. You know this discussion has come up in Council time after time. The last time a drainage dis- cussion took place in this Council was months before I even came on to the Council. I have documents piled that high that I have col- lected because this is my pet program, and I have been working on it regardless of who is liaison. And that thick up on my shelf up- stairs, and I have been reading every piece of it every time I get a chance, and all I can see over and over again, plans, programs, investigations, research, but nothing being done. Now I for one am going to do whatever I can, whether I have to do it at this Council, or through the press or through the people to start the correction of drainage now. We can't wait any longer, and anybody who thinks that we can just expects that the people will forget about it - it will go away if you don't think about it. It's never going to go away, it is only going to get worse. V/M MASSARO: I don't see anything that Councilman Zemel has said that changes the picture at all. I didn't say that this program shouldn't go on. There wouldn't be a dime in there for drainage if it wasn't for me. I was the one who insisted on $600,000 being put in there, and you can defend anybody you want. Nobody cares more about drainage here than I do and I didn't hold nothing back. It was a matter of the engineer being able to address the subject properly, at the proper time. He has to wait to see what will these storms do, is that correct, or not, Larry? MR. KEATING: From my personal evaluation, yes. V/M MASSARO: Several times we talked about it, that he needed to see � for himself where the real problems were, where the areas were flooding so that he could see how best to address this subject. That is not the question. I have no fault with what Larry has done here. I do have fault with what - and as far as the Charter is concerned, we have every right to go to any member of this city that is employed here, to discuss things with them. We cannot give them orders, but we certainly can discuss anything to any department head or any employee in this city. How else do we know what is go- ing on in this city? How else can we keep our finger on things completely? The City Manager alone would be hard pressed to do it. C/M ZEMEL: May I just add one sentence, and that's it. First of all, Vice Mayor, there was nothing personal aimed at you, there was no attack at you, but you responded as though there were. V/M MASSARO: Of course it is personal. What are you talking about. C/M ZEMEL: Oh, you think so? But that isn't what I was going to say. I was going to say that one of the problems that we are having I think the Vice Mayor pointed to very very quickly, and that is the fact that every time we have a new City Engineer, we start a new program, and each one is smarter than the last one. Each one is always smarter than the last one, and we never get to a final re- sult, and I think that now is the time. MR. GROSS: I believe the Vice Mayor is incorrect in what she said about Ralph Thissen. Ralph Thissen -- -7- 5/29/8O mr E7� C/M DISRAELLY: Is or is not? You know, you slur -- V/M MASSARO: Are you saying that Ralph is lying? MR. GROSS: Let me finish. I believe after that took place, your iscussion with Mr. Thissen, you called my office, I was not in, you spoke to the Assistant City Manager. She explained to you that she was in the meeting between Ralph and I in my office when Ralph and I discussed the item and that I had never told him at any time not to give any copies of anything to anybody. V/M MASSARO: When you are through I will tell you what she told me. MEMBER OF AUDIENCE Mr. Mayor -- MAYOR: Council is discussing it. C/M DISRAELLY: There's only one thing that bothers me in this matter of drainage, Mr. Mayor. I think we discussed it at Council and dis- cussed it with the City Manager. I think I have discussed it with Larry over the last year, that in August of last year we were given a report by Tony Nolan, the hazard of where drainage correction should be made and he gave us a list of areas with suggestions, with charts and maps showing what would be up graded, with what size pipes they would be upgraded, in order to make many of the corrections that could be done, and as a matter of fact the esti- mated amount of money was over half a million dollars, which would have used up the $600,000, and the question I have been asking from time to time was when are we going to start spending that money against these plans which have been sitting here since last August. Some of it is on various areas of the city, Westwood 24 is one of them, where there is going to be a replacement of pipe. Westwood Community 3 was involved. Lime Bay area was involved. Sunflower was involved. And I thought the work was being done in order to take care of the situation that has been before us. And so my com- ment at this particular time is that we had these prepared; these may not be engineering sketches but at least they indicated what was to have been done. I am not an engineer, I am sure a lot more work has to be done based on these sketches, but they indicated where our problems were, especially based on the rainstorm of April 25, 1979, and so now this new one that I looked at, that was presented to us in March by Tony Nolan, has some different areas involved, and now we have one on May 27th that talks of some of these same areas and other areas. And it would seem to me that we have this $600,000 appropriated and that we should take one of these sets of plans and start augmenting them. They may be wrong ones at this particular time, but they are all areas of imminent danger that have to be corrected, and it would occur to me that we take one of these sets of plans and not wait any longer and I don't care which set of plans or break them down, but let's get this thing started. The money is there, inflation hasn't made these figures any cheaper for these things to occur, the 10% interest or 11% interest we have been earning in the bank isn't going to off -set it. I think it is time that something get started. The rains are almost upon us and in the middle of the rainy season it's going to be difficult as the Dickens to do that work and something should be done right now. V/M MASSARO: The reason for the conference was supposed to have been to get those facts together. We have plans. I don't know whether Larry has seen them or not because I haven't had an opportunity to talk to him about this because no conference was set up to do this. That's exactly what I am talking about. You can't just take one set of plans and say I am going to do this piece of it because from what I have been told before about this augmentation that is neces- sary now, if you do the wrong thing you're not going to get any better result. There are certain lines that have to be corrected in order to benefit to any extent, because if you don't take the right lines, right now, the benefit isn't going to be there, because of the various things that can happen by not adjusting the proper outfalls or whatever else we are talking about. This is where, as Long as Tony had prepared certain documents at various times - we paid him for this - but at the same time, Larry wants to be able to check whatever Tony has done, because now the responsibility is his, be- cause if this augmentation doesn't work, you are going to be blaming him for it. lie's our City Engineer. So naturally he wants to sit down and review what - and then prepare for it. Are we just going to take and throw out the work that we have already paid for, or are these two men going to sit down and knock heads together and decide what is the right thing to do. We have already had an example of that. Didn't we already have augmentation to the tune of a quarter _g_ 5/29/80 mr million dollars and from what happened? you still walking up nothing happened? Do we Or are we still wading to your knees in water? get any benefit in water? Are C/M DISRAELLY: Madam Vice Mayor, if I may. I am not arguing the point. We do have plans. I think it's time that Tony, to whom we paid funds --- V/M MASSARO: I agree; all I am saying is why do they go ahead and o t is. I asked Larry to go out and do this checking, not Ed Gross. I was the one who was concerned. And this is what drives me crazy. I am supposed to depend on Ed Gross to do these things, but they wouldn't be done if jerky me wasn't there doing the work. Didn't I come to you and ask you to get out and inspect the areas for drainage and see what's happen- ing when that rain started? I drove the streets, too, over those rains. C/M DISRAELLY: Apparently, this report of May 27th looking at it again here covers in 3 or 4 areas as I look at it now, the same Sun- flower area, the same 'Community 6 area, the same Community 5 area. Now, if Larry saw this situation, on Wednesday, May 21st, and Tony Nolan gave us these identical figures on August 29th of last year, it would indicate to me that these are the areas, and if these are the areas, and since we have the $600,000, then let he and Larry sit down and draw the engineering and let's go ahead with it. MR. GROSS: That's already requested by us. C/M DISRAELLY: And let's not spend more time dilly-dallying as to as to where it's going to be. We have got at least 4 out of these 6 or 7 areas that are agreed on in both reports. Can't we clean up those two duplication of reports? V/M MASSARO: The only thing we have to determine first is that what- ever is done first, is this going to resolve in some kind of help for the people. If the whole thing can't be done,where should we - what area should we address first? That's the important question. C/M DISRAELLY: Again, in our discussion, I don't care which one we start first. We've got 4 that we agree on. Take one of the 4, instead of flipping coins, I mean let's flip a coin or pull straws out of a hat. One of these 4 - but let's get started with one of them, is what I am indicating, because both reports show the same thing and on the original report that came through, that Tony prepared he showed for example, and I am just picking one up here that says - it happens to be Sunflower - that starting out here where we got a 15 inch pipe, he says that should be a 30 inch pipe; and where there's a 36 inch pipe that should be a 72 inch pipe. Now if that's Tony's impression as to what will be the correction, and in prior conversations with him he indicated that we start at the point where it leads into the water and put the 36 to the 72 in first, see what happens there, and then work backwards to see if from the point of entering into the canals or lakes, that that corrects the situation, instead of starting at the drain and going that way, you work from the canal backwards, is that correct? MR. KEATING: Well that was the tack that I was using in my evaluations. C/M DISRAELLY: And that is what I remember discussing with Tony at that time. You weren't here. You start at the canal, put that in, hope that does it. If it doesn't you go back one more piece; if that doesn't do it you go back one more piece. And it's got to be done piecemeal so we could start 2 or 3 of these theoretically at the various seawall areas or lake areas, am I correct? MR. KEATING: Yes. The point is that each piece that you put it in con orms to today's design criteria, so that you are not putting in a negotiated design in there that is somewhere in between what's there and what we would like to have put in there. You put the pieces in that meet today's criteria. C/M DISRAELLY: So it seems to me, Mr. Mayor, final statement, that we shoo ecide almost immediately and say let's start these 4 areas, at the seawall or at the lake, and then work backwards as we have to within the monies that we have, the $600,000 and get it done. 5/29/80 mr C/M ZEMEL: I hope to end this discussion. I'd just like to make sure that one point is clear. I think the quarter of a million dollars that was spent that the Vice --Mayor was referring to, if I am not mistaken, was not city money. It was donated by developers. V/M MASSARO: It was wasted by developers. C/M ZEMEL: It doesn't matter, it was not city. taxpayers money. Now with the amount of paper that we generated in the last five and a half years with plans and schedules, we could build row- boats and give every resident a rowboat to get out of the flood. I think the time has come to stop talking and start doing. V/M MASSARO: Let's get back to what I first started with, is that w y wasn't the procedure followed that was set up here. C/M ZEMEL: That's our fault for not checking it, it's the C ouncil's au t for not making sure the administrator did his job, if you're right. But there is only one administrator. V/M MASSARO: That's the exact question that I - MR. GROSS: The procedure was followed. And that is we are bring- ing it to the Council now, the City Engineer made his review, and at this point we are asking to go to the next step, which is to go through the items and pick the items which the Council wishes to do first. V/M MASSARO: Does the Council pick the items or do the engineers o it? MR. GROSS: The engineers give you the suggestions, and the C.ouncil picks which one is the final, where to spend the money. C/M DISRAELLY: Larry, on your May 21st report you gave us 7 locations. I am sure you have a copy of the August, 79 - MR. KEATING: No I don't. MAYOR: Have you ever seen it? MR. KEATING: If you could show it to me I could tell you. I don't thin I have ever seen it. C/M DISRAELLY: Okay, you will have a copy 10 minutes after this meeting reiis up. Take that one, look at it, sign for it in blood. MR. KEATING: No I haven't seen this. C/M DISRAELLY: Okay. Mr. Mayor, can I ask that Larry put his report and this report together, stay up all the week end, and give us -- MR. KEATING: I am already staying up all the week end. C/M DISRAELLY: Well, this is the 2 hours you were going to sleep and come back with a recommendation to us as to 2 or 3 or 4 that we can start with to augment this immediately. In KEATING: If you would like a recommendation, I think I probably am prepared to make a recommendation to you at this point to proceed to the point where we can actually have some construction drawings prepared, Tony and myself would work and make some fur- ther recommendations as we go along, in coming up with the final pipes that we would suggest being changed, and from that point just go out and prepare the construction drawings and specifications and go out for bid under your authorization. But I think we need some authorization to expend engineering monies, you know, to expend money for engineering work to prepare the design and the drawings. C/M DISRAELLY: Could you do that before you come in with your recommda- tion as to which ones first? MR. I:EATING: Firstly, I think it is pretty obvious that the worst areas are t e sections. C/M DISRAELLY: Pardon me, I am suggesting that you look at that August report first before you - MR.KEATING: If you would like me to I would be glad to. -10- L 5/29/80 mr C/M DTSRAELLY: That's why I suggest that you wait until Tuesday, if Council agrees... MR. KEATTNG: Can I ask you a question? Does it include areas outside of Sunflower, Section 23 and 24 and Westwood 3? C/M DISRAELLY: It includes southwest corner of 82nd Street and 74th Avenue; 82nd and 71st; Westwood 24; across 80th Street; Westwood Boulevard and 99th Avenue; 88th Avenue and 75th Street; 67th and 72nd; White Hickory Circle in the Woodlands. Those are -- MR. KEATING: Would you like me then rather to come back at the next meeting? MAYOR: I would think so. What time do you have to leave? MR. KEATING: Around 3:30. C/M DISRAELLY: Those are the areas and I will request that these sketches be given to you .�too. MR. KEATING: I notice that there are some Woodlands locations here which we didn't detect any problems because they had very little rainfall as it happened on last Wednesday. There were no problems when we drove through there. C/M DISRAELLY: You said there were only 2 inches of rain there. V/M MASSARO They li dn' t have rain of the same They didn't even have 7. inches. Councilman Kelch, do you want to intensity. C/W KELCH: Well, it was just that I was under the impression that you were coming up with a -►I don't know where T got the impression, but I got the impression that you were coming up with a different type of emphasis here which had to do with the drainage of the road itself or the moving of catch basins or something of this nature. As far as I was concerned, I was interested in hearing about. Is it true that you have some different plan other than just increasing the drainage? Ts there some relief that you anti- cipated from the simple regrading and relocation of drainage points? MR. KEATING: Not in these particular areas, because the problems there are either a lack of drainage or that the existing pipes are just so darn small they won't take the water. Did I have a conversation with you? C/W KELCII: Well, I guess you must have, Larry, because it seems to me that you had a simple plan which could be inaugurated at small expense relatively speaking, which may possibly give us relief on our main arterial areas. Now this is what I was hoping to hear from today. MR. KEATTNG: What I was saying is, and I hope I didn't mislead any of you, is that I think the last report Tony gave to us with re- gard to Section 23 and Section 24 would have taken up all of the drainage problems in those areas, but expended in excess of five or six hundred thousand dollars, instead of the whole of these areas. Tape 3: V/M MASSARO: Larry, it's not what you have been saying to me. And it's exactly why we have been waiting for rain. You didn't think that the problem now was as extensive as we thought it was because you said that probably the work that was done with the Jet --Vac and the various improvements that it made might have made a difference, and you wanted to see it for yourself after a heavy rain. That's what you have been telling me. MR. KEATING: Let me say that before last week's rainfall, on at east two occasions where we had a pretty good rainstorm, I would say the typical summer afternoon rain here, that I drove up through Section 23 and 24 and did not observe what I considered to be a flooding problem. I did not observe standing water anywhere, and I was indicating to you all along that it would be impossible for me to make any recommendations unless I saw a flooding condition. V/M MASSARO: Well, what do you think T have been sitting here saying? That the delay has not been my fault and it was information that -11- 5/29/80 mr F J you were seeking first hand and you have been saying you don't think this amount of money has to be spent on this and I tried to tell you that you haven't seen it. How many times, Larry, have you said to me, "Now you are not referring to the April storm", and I said forget the damn April storm, we have April storms very frequently, and these people are wading in water. You haven't see it though. And I could understand that, and the first time we had a significant rain I went into your office and said Larry, get out, get a couple of men out so that you could cover all these streets. Bring back a report of what you see. MR. KEATING: That's what I did. C/M ZEMEL: Did I understand you to say a moment ago, Larry, that you had a plan that you were pretty positive would work but that the cost was excessive? Did I understand you to say that? ♦1y KEATING: I think what I said was the cost to put in the total amount of improvements that would be required to bring it up to today's design standard, would probably be over two million dollars in all the areas we are talking about. What I am recommending, and I hope I didn't mislead Mrs.- Kelch and Mrs. Massaro. on this, is that we go in - and I don't think I indicated ever that the cost would be very low, we are still talking in the area of a half million to a million dollars, but we are not talking about - we are talking about going in and doing the main lines, coming out of the sub -divisions. V/M MASSARO That's what I"'m trying to make them understand. C/M ZEMEL: While I am still talking to you for a minute, I don't think you should involve yourself too much with the cost, because the cost is not as important as the danger to our people. I don't think the cost is the criteria. V/M MASSARO: Of course it is, where do you think you are getting it from? C/M ZEMEL: From the people who won't drown. V/M MASSARO: Come on, Irving. Where are you going to get the money r C/M ZEMEL: For five and a half years we have been beating our gums i-e this. I stood in front of this chamber for 3 years. We will have to get the money. C/M DISRAELLY: Again, a suggestion was made, and we are talking around the same thing, and I suggested that Larry bring it in. Let's wait until Tuesday until we see what happens instead of arguing about where it's going to begin. He will bring us a report per- taining to that. Based on the August report that I just gave him and his report which covered some of the same areas. We also have a third letter here from Tony Nolan indicating that Sections - that the Westwood area alone would take $500,000. And so we have to come to a corrlusion as to - meanwhile we have $600,000. And I am suggesting let's get started and take care of as much as we can with this. V/M MASSARO: Mr. Mayor, I want Councilman Disraelly to understand that the western area isn't completely going to be taken care of with that money. C/M DISRAELLY: I didn't say that it was. I said there is a third re- port that said it would take $600,000 -- V/M MASSARO: Just the highlights, the worst areas they hope to be able to take care of there. The areas that are significant as being the main channels that will help to alleviate the other sections, that they won't be as bad until they can reach them with more money. C/M DISRAELLY: The point is rather than talk about it, let's get some action started, and I am suggesting that we start on Tuesday. i MR. KEATING: Ican certainly understand the C ouncil's impatience wHicis really not the word I want to use, but it's the only one I have at this point with the progress or lack of progress that has -12- 5/29/80 mr L_ been made in resolving your drainage problems --I would re- spectfully request that you give me until the next council meeting, rather than Tuesday, because I - it's an extra week, but sometimes an extra week of thought and planning, and when you're talking about spending the amount of money you are talking about, a week's time is certainly worth taking, to think about how you want to go about it. You don't want to approach it in an emergency basis. I don't recommend that. MAYOR: I don't think Council is really that concerned about a few days. What Council is talking about is something we have been talking about for months and months and months. We have -- as Councilman Disraelly indicated and showed you a report there, that hasn't moved from Day 1. It is still in its original form. Nothing has been done with it. At the same time, our City Manager has indicated to the Council that one of the prime problems that we have in the city is to keep the roads open. You recall the discussion we had in here in council, that we got to keep the roads open so that we can get emergency vehicles back in there. Isthat right? Didn't you make that observation? Isn't that right, Vice -Mayor? V/M MASSARO: Yes. MAYOR: This was a part of the discussion. V/M MASSARO: I remember the first time we had to send trucks in there to pull cars out of the way so the vehicles could get through. MAYOR: But for some reason or other we get to the place where we agree, and then for some reason or other we don't go beyond that. And that's what we are talking about. V/M MASSARO: We have had a problem of having different engineers. MR. KEATING: I have a suggestion for you if you want to move it, and 17 you really want to move it, you have a consulting engineer who is very qualified in drainage work. I think you are all aware of the work load that my office has right now. Why don't you seek a proposal from him, ask him to give you a proposal to prepare, to do the design and prepare the plans and specifications for the drainage modifications in the sections that you consider, that we consider, you consider with my advice to be the most appropriate to work on first, and have him work within the framework of the amount of money you have to spend right now, and then the work will be started. C/M DISRAELLY: Larry, that's what I asked you to bring us. Look at your report of last week, look at his report of August, get to- gether with him, call him up, which ones are the priorities. MR. KEATING: I don't think it is any question; I think we all know where the problem areas are. C/M DISRAELLY: Alright, but you have 7 of them there. Which are the to begin with, that's what I am asking. MR. KEATING: We have to work it all in the framework of you tell me ow much money you want to spend. You want to spend $600,000, you want to spend a million. C/M DISRAELLY: No, let's first find out which ones. MR. KEATING: In the meantime, let's think about the money too. C/M ZEMEL: Yes, we have to, but what I am saying is if Project 1, let's first take the priorities, I think Mr. Mayor, that comes be- fore the money. The priority is #1. If the first priority takes $300,000 then we have $300,000 left. If the second priority only takes $100,000 then we can go into the third one for $200,000 but don't let's spend the money first and then say well now I can't do anything because I don't have enough money. Give us the priorities. MR. KEATING: You can prepare bids with deductible items so that you can knock out those that are in excess of what you can pay for. -13- 5/29/80 mr C/M DISRAELLY: Give us the priorities, 1, 2, 3, 4. I think that's what we need first. If we don't have the priorities, we don't know which way to go and you are the guy to give us the priorities. V/M MASSARO: I think what he is asking for and which he has to have in order to give you an intelligent answer, you have to tell him the top amount of money you are ready to spend in order for him to give you an intelligent answer. C/M DISRAELLY: I would respectfully disagree with that. The dollars don't -come first, the priorities come first. And if the first priority takes $600,000 we can't go anywhere else, there's no sense in saying that this is the worst area but we won't do it. V/M MASSARO: Are you telling him that you want him to figure any- where from $600,000 down? C/M DISRAELLY: No, I am not talking money. I am saying figure out w ich is the first priority, which is the worst area in the city; give us the second area in the city which should be fixed; give us the third area of the city; then the dollars will fit into those areas, not the areas into the dollar. MR. KEATING: I might make this suggestion to you. Just a thought, something to think about. We have some definitely identified areas that we know the problems exist. We know that before we can get any progress to eliminate those problems we have to do plans and specifications. We have to design the fix and then prepare the plans for it and go out to bid. You have enough money to do that. You don't necessarily have enough money to do all the con- struction. Now, in the past five years,starting about 76,the first Public Works program came out, where grant programs were put out by the federal government to pay for public works projects that cities had planned for but for some reason or another couldn't pay. If you do your plans you might be talking about $50,,000 to $60,000 maybe more, maybe $75,000. This is for all your problem areas. You go to construction with what you can afford to pay for. The plans for the modifications are still there and can still be used. You just pick them up off the shelf and re -bid them at a later date when you have more money, or if a grant program came along, in election years is a good time for grant programs, generally, maybe you would be lucky. I don't know. It's a gamble, in one sense, but it's not really a gamble because you aren't wasting anything to take that gamble. C/M DISRAELLY: Alright, then if I may change it around, give us the specifications for those in that priority number. V/M MASSARO: What kind of money are you talking about to prepare something like that? MR. KEATING: Well if you are talking -- MAYOR: We don't want to spend $600,000 for something like that. MR. KEATING: If you are saying - I am just going to talk round numbers. If you are talking round numbers, let's say $750,000 worth of construction, the plans would probably run you 7% of that. Roughly. Which is an area of $50,000. C/M DISRAELLY: $600,000 would cost you $40,000. MR. KEATING: I could discuss that with Tony and we could come up with better numbers for you, if you want. C/M ZEMEL: Without plans we couldn't do anything, right? MR. KEATING: Well, you have to have them anyway. C/M ZEMEL: So what's the difference, we have to do it. If it takes away a bit of the money from the $600,000 and we need more, we will just have to find more somewhere. Maybe we will do away with some of the frivolous things that we do. C/M DISRAELLY: The thought that Larry has, to prepare the engineering, so that if grants become available,then we can send Mitch out and say we have these sitting on the shelf, maybe we can save $200,000 by having $50,000 worth of plans. -14-- 5/ 29/ 80 mr r � � V/M MASSARO: We already have that application out for a grant. It's sitting on the shelf. We already have that application out. C/M DISRAELLY: That's for the SSES, but that's a different grant. That's for the infiltration grant. We are talking now of drain- age improvement, that has nothing to do with the other. Right? MR. KEATING: That's right. If that's what we are talking about. The SSES is the water and sewer -- C/M ZEMEL: I think you can connect the two. Doesn't the filtra- tion have something to do with -- isn't it costing us money be- cause of it? C/W KELCH: Yes, but it isn't for the construction of the same type -- MR. KEATING: I have never seen those type of grants resolve a drain- age problem. The type of inflow they look at is connections from houses, from condominiums -- C/W KELCH: Sanitary sewers. MAYOR: I certainly agree we ought to have a list of priorities. I looked at the report you sent in. I couldn't tell which was the most pressing. I have a sneaky idea where it is, but I think we should have a list of priorities, and I think Council ought to make a determination as soon as that list can be made available to us and make a determination as to how we are going to get started. We have the money to get started, so I certainly agree that we ought to be worrying about the drainage and not about a complete set of programs out here that we may be working on five years from now. We need to be taking action now specifically, no question about it. V/M MASSARO: If they had done it the way it was supposed to be done, we would have had that for you today. C/M DISRAELLY: Alright, but we didn't. That's why I am suggesting -- V/M MASSARO: It isn't, we didn't; he didn't. C/M DISRAELLY: Alright. The pointing of a finger at this moment, if I may, isn't going to gain anything. Larry is indicating that he can get a report for us on June 11, which will be one week, 8 days later than our projected time, that he will give us a report with Tony. At that time if we can decide that we will expend X dollars for engineering to have it ready, (1) to spend our own money and/or to go to grants which has been suggested, and we will be on the way. MR. KEATING: I don't suggest that you wait for grants. C/M DISRAELLY: No, No. I said the plans will be ready for our implemen- tation and/or -- In any event we will be able to go ahead in the proper areas with the proper plan design. MAYOR: Mr. Hirsch. MR. HIRSCH: Before Larry leaves, I would like to ask him a few questions. MAYOR: You have 5 minutes. He has to leave. MR. HIRSCH: That's the reason I am starting backwards. The City Engineer, he's the City Engineer? - are these people equipped to draw up plans? Why must we pay $5.0,00.0 to $75,000 for plans? This a genuine engineer. MR. GROSS: Yes, but we only have so much time, and his time is taken up right now and our staff time is taken up - we do not have available staff time right now for us to do it. - MR. HIRSCH: Would it be cheaper to hire somebody to do a cheaper job than have the plans drawn up for $75,000 elsewhere? How long does a set of plans take to draw up? 3, 4, 5 weeks? MR. GROSS: We don't have the space; a lot of other things are in- volved too. And these people are experts in the field. We want to get the job done, that's what we are looking for. If you want to 35� 5/29/80 mr look for something to be done in 2, 3 years from now, fine. MR. HIRSCH: Alright, next question. When you mention about pipes going through to wherever they are supposed to go instead of 24 inches 36 inches, 72 feet or whatever you are talking about, where are they going to, in the canals? MR. KEATING: Yes sir. MR. HIRSCH: If there are no canals, where are they going to? MR. KEATING: Eventually they go into a canal. MR. HIRSCH: Over where I live the canal filled up and the water was up to the door of my garage inside of 45 minutes. MR. KEATING: Where is that? MR. KIRSCH: Section 24 on 108th Avenue, Northwest 108th Avenue. And I was standing there and just watching it raise. MR. KEATING: In the streets you mean? MR. HIRSCH: I have a catch basin in my driveway, and a catch basin across the street from my driveway, and the water was over the catch basin right up to the door of my garage. MR. KEATING: That's exactly the problem that we are discussing here. The reason for that is because the pipes that were originally in- stalled are much too small, they are much smaller than they should be. MR. HIRSCH: But the canal was over the bank. The water of the canal was over the bank. We don't have a seawall there. In fact, maybe the canal has to be dredged deeper to hold more water. MR. KEATING: Our highest recorded canal elevation that day was 8.5. That certainly shouldn't be over any banks. MR. HIRSCH: Well this was over the bank. In fact, 3 of the people across the street from me have built concrete walks all the way down, 3 houses connecting one another, and they were topped with water on to their grass. C/M DISRAELLY: Was it pumping into C-14? MR. KEATING: Give the location to my secretary and I will be glad to look at it. Perhaps one of the culverts inter -connecting the canals was plugged or something. MR. HIRSCH: No, No, we saw the water going down into the sewer in t e catch basin; the water was spinning around, it was going down. MR. KEATING: Where the canal was coming over the banks, you say? MR. KIRSCH: The canal was full and the pumps were working. Around the —catch basin there was a bunch of debris just floating around in a circle. In fact I called City Hall here and I spoke to some- body at the desk, asking if they opened up the C-14 canal, and they said they did right away. V/M 14ASSARO: Larry, were all the pumps working that day? MR. KEATING: Both the gas pumps and the electric pumps, I believe were on. V/M MASSARO: Do the automatic pumps go on? MR. KEATING: Yes. In fact we turned them on before they would have gone on automatically. MR. HIRSCH: The thing that I feel where we live, is that we have one canal covering 100 to 108th, from 80th to 83rd. MR. GROSS: Mr. Hirsch, you asked that question yesterday. We told you that the new canal is being - MR. HIRSCH: You didn't mention it, that's the reason I'm asking it again, Ed. In order to have some water being relieved in 23 and -16- 5/29/80 mr 24 - I don't know too much about 23, but I know about 24 - we have one canal, and if these canals are dug as you say then probably most of the water will be disappearing and with the amount of the sewer pipe -- C/M DISRAELLY: We can't depend on anybody but the city to take care of those problems. MR. HIRSCH: Who is going to dig the canal? C/M ZEMEL: The developers. Land Section 6 and 7 might be develop- ed; that's going to take up all that percolation in that area and give us more water to run off, isn't that right, Larry? MR. HIRSCH: Two years ago, we had the Corps of Army Engineers go through this big to-do that went on for month after month after month. Vice -Mayor MassaVo was down our clubhouse and she promised us everything would be good right after the corps of Army Engineers took care of this thing. So far nothing happened. Now we are go- ing through the same thing now. V/M MASSARO: Just a minute. Let me just say -- MR. HIRSCH: I am not criticizing you now. V/M MASSARO: I am not saying that you are, but just one point. As far as I am concerned, I am leading very cautiously because after that the augmentation was completed. That was after the Army Corps of Engineers. They didn't come in since then, and Council- man Zemel says that that.wasn't taxpayer's money. Indirectly it was taxpayer's money because now the taxpayers have to do it over again. So it is taxpayer's money. MR. HIRSCH: Alright, but what I am saying -- C/M ZEMEL: But our engineers agreed --- V/M 14ASSARO: What I am telling you is that now our engineer tells us that -- MR. HIRSCH: This is what I am trying to say. It's like somebody who does something bad. He goes to the Rabbi, he goes to the Wriest. He goes to the Priest and the Rabbi until he gets the answer that he wants, which isn't right. The Corps of Army En- gineers gave you an answer. Why should we have to wait --- V/M MASSARO They did not give us any answer. Mr. Hirsch -- MR. HIRSCH: Then why did you say at Section 24 in the clubhouse that this thing would be taken care of when the Corps of Army Engineers -- V/M MASSARO We expected it, but when they came here -- MR. HIRSCH: So why does this come up two and a half years, or three years later, we are in the same boat. Why did we wait two and a half or three years? Why couldn't we have done it after the Corps of Army Engineers said what you didn't want to hear, C/M DISRAELLY: Mr. Hirsch, going back 3 years today is not going to do us any good. We gave Larry some instructions today. We will -- MR. HIRSCH: Why couldn't these instructions have been given to somebody 3 years ago? C/M DISRAELLY: We can't go back 3 years; we can't throw the calendar back. We started a calendar 5 minutes ago. Please wait until June llth and then make your comments. MR. HIRSCH: Now I have some more questions. Why did we leave the developers off the hook the way we did, Leadership for one? Why did we leave them off the hook? V/M MASSARO: Because we had nothing to keep them there with. MR. HIRSCH: You know, from 5 years ago, when we moved into this development, Ed Gross was out there with water over his knees, and so was I and so was Irv. Now this is going on for 5 years. Why couldn't something have been done in those 5 years? Leadership was still developing at the time. Why did you leave them off the hook? -17- 5/29/80 mr V/M MASSARO: Because we had nothing to hold them on the hook with. MR. GROSS: Mr. Hirsch, there are laws, and the City Council can only make them do what the law requires to be done, both state laws and county laws and city laws. We could ask them for any- thing above that — MR. HIRSCH: Didn't they have money into the city that you people had to give them back for when they left? V/M MASSARO Not for those items. You can't hold one for another. Not at all. We didn't give them back any money. MAYOR: We gave them back nothing. V/M MASSARO: We took money from them but we gave them no money. None whatsoever. MR. HIRSCH: Also at this last rain storm we had - not this last one, but a year ago. Everybody knew at that time that the place was going to get flooded and flooded and flooded. And it took prac- tically a whole year to get this drainage thing on the agenda here. Now why did it take that whole year. Forget about the other 5 years. Just let's go back one year. There was no reason for it to wait that long. Now if this fellow here is tied up the way he is tied up, it is going to drag on for another couple of years. C/M DISRAELLY: We will have the report a week from Wednesday on the t . MR. HIRSCH: The only thing I am trying to say. Please I am not trying to criticize anybody. The only thing I am trying to say is -- you people should keep after somebody that this lapse of time shouldn't happen again. C/M ZEMEL: Mr. Hirsch, you have talked out of frustration. I understand and we all do. Everybody has to do that once in a while. And you have them like lots of other people. Thanks. MR. HIRSCH: When you are standing and watching the water going up and there is nothing you can do about it -- I was just standing and watching it "the other day. C/W KELCH: May I say something. I couldn't help but think while I was listening to you. I live in a section that is 13 years old. Every time it rains, certain people in our area watch the rain come right up to the garage doors. There is nothing wrong with the drainage in our section. It runs off. In the 13 years nobody has ever had water in their house, but rain after rain after rain, they watch it come up to the garage door. There's one right back of me, so I know what I am talking about. Mine is great. I live on a high spot or something, but these things oc- cur. This is South Florida. And a certain amount of these things that you see is not as great a danger as you may think. As I say there is absolutely nothing wrong with the drainage in the area where I live, so please I ask of you, don't get so upset. Have a little faith. Because we are trying to do the very best we can. We have to analyze these things carefully. We would be hung and quartered if we spent any of the taxpayer's money foolishly. We got to be judicious and careful in what we do, and we certainly are trying to do that. MR. HIRSCH: We have a ditch out there that Leadership had dug which they were supposed to put in pipes. The ditch is still there, 5 years ago. MR. GROSS: Pipe wasn't supposed to be put in those ditches. MR. HIRSCH: Supposed to see how the water ran? MR. GROSS: At a later date to build wider canals there. MR. HIRSCH: Is that what it's for? At that time we were -- MAYOR: Mr. Hirsch, it's on the ticket now. END OF VERBATIM -18- 5/29/80 mr GENERAL ADMINISTRATIVE/FINANCIAL 15. Budget Adjustment - Cypress Creeek Commons Marina - Discussion and possible action to appropriate money from the Park and Recreation Fund to complete this facility. SYNOPSIS OF ACTION: Tabled to meeting of 6/25/80. The City Manager attempted to contact State and South Florida Water Management District representatives but they were not avail- able. The Vice -Mayor stated she spoke with Mr. Maloy of the South Florida Water Management District and inquired about the availability of grant money for $10,000. Mx. Maloy said the budget is being pre- pared now and he would submit a requisition for $10,000 within this budget. He asked if Tamarac would be willing to contribute part of the money toward it. The Vice -Mayor indicated she thought that Council would appropriate any money that they could not give US. Mr. Maloy said he would respond to the City Manager and City Planner with an answer in 2 to 3 weeks. C/W Kelch felt very strongly and expressed the wish to see this finished but would be willing to postpone any action for 2 or 3 weeks in order to wait for a decision from the South Florida Water Management District concerning grant monies. She then MOVED that this be tabled until the Tune 25th meeting. V/M Massaro SECONDED the motion. VOTE: ALL VOTED AYE. LEGAL AFFAIRS 29. Broward County Road Bond Program - Discussion and possible action on: a) McNab Road Utility Relocation - from University Drive to 70th Avenue - Temp. Reso. #1618. b) Project #4106 - McNab Road Construction - Temp. Reso. #1674. c) Project #4108 - Prospect Road Construction - Temp. Reso. #1675. d) Project #4116 - N. W. 31st Avenue Construction - Temp. Reso. #1676. e) Project #4135 - Rock Island Road Construction Temp. Reso. #1677. f) Commercial Blvd. from N.W. 88th Avenue to N.W. 94th Avenue Beautification - Temp. Reso. #1678. g) Project #4133 - State Road 7 - C-13 Canal to C-14 Canal - Temp. Reso. #1682. SYNOPSIS OF ACTION: Items a thru g tabled. City Attorney to contact Broward County General Counsel and City Manager to review each contract. -19- 5/29/80 by The Vice -Mayor said that these agreements are not in order and need revision. C/W Kelch felt that Council should act on the McNab Road Agreement. , Mr. Birken said this agreement is legally acceptable. However, it is not an outstanding agreement. C/M Disraelly asked when the County is oing to start building McNab road to which V/M Massaro answered tVey are just going out for bids. Mr. Gross stated bids have been accepted already, and the County is scheduled to start work next month. The Vice -Mayor felt that the City could not indemnify and hold County harmless for any and all delays or holdups of any nature in the progression of county's contract in the widening and improvement, as is stated in the agreement. The Council members concurred. V/M Massaro said the contract calls for interest at 7.5% and felt the City should not pay any interest. Mr. Birken stated he had never seen a contract for the relocation of lines for Commercial Blvd. We prepared a contract without interest and sent it to the county, which was a duplicate of the Margate contract. He had never received a response, and thought this was to the City's advantage. The City Manager had previously stated that he had been to the County Commission meeting when the Commercial Blvd. contract had been discussed and approved with 6% interest. The City Attorney further stated the McNab Road document is not, in his opinion, the best written contract but it is legal. The delay and "hold harmless" provisions are potentially onerous. If the County delays work while the City decides what to do with the utilities, and then executes this contract, Mr. Birken said, it will cost the City money. If the County delays and the costs go up, then we may want to find the money for those lines in order to avoid signing a contract that requires paying the contractor's cost for delaying a job. Mr. Birken stated if Council acts on this docu- ment, there should be no question of delay because the City will have done everything that is required. However, if Council does not act on it, then the delay question is there and is something that the City may have to deal with at a.later time. His experience with the County Attorney's office is that they are not receptive to changing anything they have written. V/M Massaro stated that last night Commissioner Thompson said re- gardless of any contract that any one makes, if one contract has a benefit that another hasn't, you automatically get that benefit, and you are entitled to it and they have to give it to you, so if Margate has a contract for no interest, the County can't make Tamarac pay any interest. Mr. Birken said it was his recollection that the City Manager in- formed him after the County Commission acted on the Commercial Blvd. contract that the County Commission had directed staff to get in touch with Margate to try to renegotiate their contract on the interest. The City Attorney offered to contact the County Attorney's office to see if the contract could be revised to include only the alternative where the County does the work and the City pays over 5 years. However, he was not optimistic that they are going to change the interest provision because he thought that a delegation to the County Commission would be necessary to even have any hope for a change in that regard. Council members concurred and C/M Disraelly further suggested speaking to the Commissioners on an individual basis. Mr. Gross stated that he spoke with Bob Kauth of Broward County and he, in turn, had spoken with some of the Commissioners who indicated they -20- 5/29/80 1 TAPE 4: wanted the same contract on McNab Road as was executed on Commer- cial Blvd. However, as the City Attorney previously stated, there is no contract on Commercial Boulevard. Mr. Birken said it is probable the County is going to proceed with the road agreements whether the City signs them or not. They are already out for bid on McNab Road. It may be worth the City's while not to take action on the road agreements. The county may say they are not going to build the project if the agreements are not signed and then another decision would have to be made. Mayor Falck felt the City Attorney should contact the County and then inform Council of their decision and not act on this agree- ment at this time. Mr. Birken indicated there is a lien onpart of the property that was owned by TUI. The City took subject to that and has the responsibility there. Realistically, he said, the choices are to litigate it or deal with it. If litigation occurs in 2 or 3 years,we can have a decision and will probably be in the same position that we would be in if we had the contract. The City Attorney concurred with V/M Massaro that there is nothing the City can say about where the County puts the lines. V/M Massaro said Mr. Birken should call the County and if he isn't able to do anything then the Council should male a decision as to whether a delegation should go down before the Commission. Perhaps before then, each one of the Council members should talk to the various Commissioners with whom they are acquainted. C/W Kelch indicated that the letter Council received from Jim Brady concurred with the City Attorney's opinion. V/M Massaro MOVED that the City Attorney be requested to contact the General Counsel for the County and discuss the possibility of getting the 5 year period and hopefully without interest, and if he is not able to make these arrangements, that he is to come back to the meeting after he is able to make this contact,., and give us the report on it so that appropriate action can be taken by council, -on otheritems, she will be prepared to give by report to Council on Wednesday of next week and fel't..each Council member can give'his own report. Mr. Birken added that he received a letter from the County regard- ing illumination and landscaping which won't take place without agreements. V/M Massaro stated that these agreements required the City to assume all of the maintenance responsibility; whereas our responsibility is minimal compared to the amount that belongs to somebody else. To C/M Zemel's question regarding the form of these agreements,tlie City Attorney said the agreements are standard. Council approved essentially the same agreement for beautification on Commercial Boulevard and then we submitted a side letter clarifyin- our understanding of certain provisions pertaining to the powers o:,' the director which accompanied our acceptance of th(� a reement. It was understood that if the City wanted the beautification then the agreements had to be signed because the County does have the same agreement with all the cities where construction is taking place,and it is &problem for them to make modifications because they run the risk of every other city coming back and saying they want the same changes. Tamarac does not have as bid, a problem with the line relocations as far as negotiating changes, he said as we do with the beautification and illumination. V/M Massaro said the City accepts the maintenance or the County will put in just grass that can be cut rough, because that is the only kind of maintenance they will assume which is perhaps once or twice at the most a year. This was discussed and Council was not in favor of that. She explained that on Commercial Boulevard, Sunrise is responsible for a certain portion, Lauderhill is re- sponsible for another portion and then Tamarac maintains another portion. Those who have a responsibility must assume it. As far as other roads, where the County is involved, the only responsibility they will assume is that once or twice a year they will cut the grass. V/M Massaro believed that Council had decided to assume the maintenance of the beautification because in some locations the City abuts the property and in reviewing the plans the beautification -21- 5/29/80 mr - by was held down to a minimum but was still kept attractive. C/M Disraelly felt that a simultaneous agreement must be made with every municipality sharing the maintenance covered by the agreement before Tamarac executes the agreement as far as far as beautification is concerned. The lighting agreement, he believes, covers 7 lights,which seems to be the correct number, but beyond that point, the luminaires should be charged to that other city and all these things must be spelled out before the agreement is executed;otherwise,Tamarac will wind up theoretically paying for everything. C/W Kelch brought up the fact that when Tamarac assumed the maintenance along the eastern portion of Commercial Boulevard extension which abuts Oakland Park, they in turn, assumed the maintenance of 31st Avenue. However, there is no indication of that in this material. Mr. Gross said that during the first year of City operation of Commercial Boulevard, the cost of maintaining the medians was substantially higher than expected because of the labor work, the handwork and in replacing foliage. The foliage requires much care,including chemicals for insects,and maintenance of the sprinkler system. C/W Kelch said McNab Road was beautified by the County without consulting the City and felt the City should not delay action on this agreement because Broward County has a history of doing what they please, unless they have something down in writing to the contrary. The City Manager pointed out that small foliage looks very nice, but is very expensive and the beautification .should consist only of trees, grass and some bushes as we have in our other medians, and with Bahia grass a sprinkler system is not needed. The Vice - Mayor concurred, adding that plans must be approved. V/P1I,1assaro reiterated she MOVED that Mr. Birken be instructed to contact the Gn�neral Counsel for the County and to report back to Council, and to table this item until he comes back with his report. In the meantime, the City Manager should be looking at every one of these contracts and she will give a memorandum by Wednesday and thought it a good idea if members of the Council send in some kind of thoughts on all of these contracts; but certainly the City Attorney or City Manager should be reviewing them and giving their input. C/M Disraelly SECONDED the motion. VOTE: ALL VOTED AYE. COMMUNITY DEVELOPMENT 38. Building Permit possible action building permit SYNPOSIS OF ACTION: Fees - Temp. Reso. #1680 - Discussion and to amend Resolution No. R-79-1 adopting fees. Adopted as amended. Resolution No. R- gQ LYPASSED. Mr. Birken stated he read the correction on page 8, Section C, and inquired if it was Council's desire that all of the fees that preceded do not apply if the job is less than $300. C/M Zemel and C/W Kelch indicated concurrence except for electri- cal work. The City Attorney suggested adding "Construction, alterations, additions, repairs and maintenance of items not set forth above, the cost of which exceeds $300, shall pay a fee as set forth below." Council then requested language regarding electrical work. Mr. Birken read the language to be inserted after the words "Chief Building Official": "comma other than electrical work, a permit for which is required regardless of the cost of the work". He then stated the language previously quoted would follow this insert. C/M Disraelly MOVED to adopt Temp. #1680 revising the Building -22- 5/29/80 by Department fees. C/W Kelch SECONDED the motion. VOTE: C/W Kelch Aye C/M Zemel Aye C/M Disraelly Aye V/M Massaro Absent Mayor Falck Aye REPORTS 52. City Council C/W Kelch had no report. C/M Disraelly said he had written to six members of the Droward delegation in reference tD the proposed Mouse Bill 1700 which is the enclave bill and sent each one a map of the City showing the two enclaves. He received a letter today from Terry O'Plalley thanking hm and reporting that the proposed bill is the Community Affairs Committee at the present time, and doesn't know whether it will reach the floor during this session. So he concluded by saying "several years ago he sponsored a bill closing the hole in the donut in Tamarac so there should be no doubt in your mind that I support this approach to the annexation". The City manager stated the "hole in the donut" he was talking about is that one large house, five acres on Rock Island, that was across the road from the old City Hall. C/M Disraelly stated that when staff reports are presented, he requested the Asst. City Manager to have a form made out whereby when a site plan is presented to Council, this form indicate that retention fees or area have been taken care of, retainage that is involved is taken care, that the bond is covered, etc. All of the questions that are asked at every single meeting for every single site plan that comes before Council will have been checked off and Council won't have to go through the process of asking on each site plan. This form should be part of the staff report. V/M Massaro also requested that this form indicate not only staff sign -off but also fee figures. C/M Disraelly felt it would be more helpful if Council could see that it was initialed by the Chief Building official, City Engineer, the City Planner, whoever is involved. At the pre- sent time staff is called to the meeting. If Council had this re- port, staff wouldn't have to attend. Mr. Gross indicated he would take this matter up with the Planner. C/M Zemel said that some weeks ago he reported to Council that there was a hazardous traffic condition created by buses making two right turns very quickly from 80th St. onto 103rd Avenue onto 80th Ct. in Section 24. He had contacted Mr. Victor Iskowitz of the Broward County Transportation Department who had asked him to call a Mr. Johnson and he said action would certainly be taken; no action has been taken. The buses are just as dangerous. They go onto people's lawns and a hazard to other traffic. He had the County contacted and requested a stop sign that would at least slow traffic down, which is in process. He requested the City Manager to have the Police Department enforce the traffic laws. Bus drivers have been warned for a year and a half now and the traffic laws should be en- forced. In addition over a period of the last nine or ten months, he has been requesting various department heads through the City 11anager and Assistant City Manager to have a street sign replaced on 100th Terrace and 81st Terrace in the same section. It is 17 months that that street sign is down. V/M Massaro had questioned the City Manager and the Engineering Department as to what relief can be given to the shopkeepers at Burkard Plaza. There was a meeting scheduled with the County with Rafael Pena also attending. The shopkeepers and the owner of the property are very disturbed because nothing has resulted from the meeting and the County had a predetermined opinion before looking at the situation or finding some way to relieve the problem. She felt these people are going to be out of business in less than a year. _23_ 5/29/80 by The County is putting in ctrbing and a median on Rock Island Road so that ro one -can cross there the Vice -Mayor stated. Most of their customers come from Woodlands and Inverrary. They can enter but then to exit, traffic has to go East on Commercial Boulevard, through Section 6 and back onto Rock Island Road and they are just not going to do it. People have been entering and exiting on Rock Island Road ever since Burkard Plaza has been built, she added, and now the County wants to abolish that. Even though Commercial Boulevard has been widened 7 feet, this opening on Rock Island Road isn't that close. She asked how Council felt"so that some type of action could be taken if Council felt it should be done. Mr. Gross said that Traffic Engineer at the County said if the City would give the County a hold harmless agreement, there was a possibility the County would put the median cut in on Rock Island Road because the location is not within the 600 feet re- quired by the County. C/M Disraelly pointed out the County is leaving open the median cut that runs between McNab Shopping Plaza and Family Mart Shopping Plaza because otherwise there will be no food getting into McNab Plaza, which is 300 feet from University Drive on McNab Road and at least as heavily traveled as Rock Island. Mayor Falck added that Burkard Plaza serves a very worthwhile purpose to Sections 6 and 7. It is clean and he has never heard a complaint. The City Manager suggested the City pass a resolution requesting that the City Attorney send a letter saying that the City wants a median opening there. Council members concurred and the City Attorney said it would be ready for the meeting on Tuesday, June 3rd. V/M Massaro noted there were no bills from Williams, Hatfield & Stoner except that $100 on this agenda and requested the City Manager to follow this up because Mr. Nolan was to bill the City monthly. 1)Regarding the Helistop at the Gate, V/M Massaro had contacted Dan Mica, who in turn, contacted the FAA and expects to hear fur- ther from him after he receives a reply from FAA. 3) C/M Disraelly spoke with Mr. Nilson last week and was told that Tallahassee would not grant a license until another hearing was held. He brought up the matter of the site plan, and said that 1000 feet from the western wall of Sabal Palm condominium is within 12 feet of Woodland Boulevard, so all the people in that area would have to be notified. Mr. Nilson mentioned that Mr. Harris ori- ginally came in "not with clean hands" and therefore the appli- cation will be reviewed very closely. He further said that no one has authority to land there and if anybody sees him landing he would suggest that they take the number of the plane and the time and date that it landed, get a photograph if possible and then to call the police. 4)V/M Massaro said there are two helicopters,a yellow one and a white one, but they only come down for a minute and then are back up.2)V/M Massaro requested Commissioner Forman to contact Mr. Nilson at the FAA and ask for the date that's been set for a hearing and he said he would let us know as soon as lie had a reply because he was going to send a letter out immediately. Furthermore, she had been in touch with the authorities that have ability to license or not license etc., and it was suggested that we request the County to look for injunctive relief, and in the meantime, to make sure that they do not bypass ghat hearing and give them a license. At the present time they have no license and they are landing in violation.. She suggested. the City Attorney see .i f anything could be done about encouraging Broward County to get an injunction.5)C/M Disraelly also added that Mr. Nilson also said that the original site plan that was presented to them was an area over near the airport, off: Powerline Road. V/M Massaro inquired about the procedures used for lot clearing costs. She received a bill in the mail for clearing a lot and it said "Inadvertently you were not billed previously for lot clearing December 17th". She questioned how she could have re- ceived a bill in the mail for a lot that she doesn't own with her address, her name, as property manager. -24- 5/29/80 by Mayor Falck recalled that the auditors reviewed this item extensively and said the City had no follow up. The City Manager was told at that time corrective measures should be taken in order to alleviate that type of situation. The City Manager said he would check into this matter and re- port back to Council. C/W Kelch said since the Vice -Mayor has brought up this lot clear- ing program, suggested the City Manager tell Council about the regular lot clearing program of those people that are under agreement to have their lot cleared. There is such a list of people and they are cleared on a regular basis,and the City is reimbursed for this. There is also the emergency lot clearing for people who have not entered into the volun- tary program where the City would clear the lot and then have to file a lien. She felt that the City Manager should review this general information"for the scope of the work has never come to the Council's attention, and it would be to Council's advantage especially as we start getting into the budgeting period and requested the City Manager to explain this program and copies of the program sent to the Council. 54. City. Attorney Mr. Birken informed Council that supplemental oral argument in the Garchar case was held before the 4th District Court of Appeal this morning. The issue pertains to compara- tive negligence on the part of Mr. Garchar on whether there was error by the Circuit Court in not granting a certain jury instruction that was requested and believed that the other matters have been resolved and this is the only matter left to be decided, and that a decision will be coming down in the not too distant future. 53. City Manager Mr. Gross stated that he and some members of Council attended the breakfast this morning at the Tamarac Elementary School where awards were given to the volunteers of the community who helped in the school. It was very en- lightening for him to see the number of volunteers that were actually involved in the school activity, substantially more than he has ever seen in any school. He felt that Mrs. Brown and Mrs. Donahue, who was in charge of volunteer services, should be commended for the great enthusiasm which they have brought to the volunteer program. 52. Mayor Falck said he attended the self-insurance fund meeting in Tallahassee last Friday, was elected vice-chairman and conducted the organization meeting. One of the things that was built into the plan at the outset was a going in 10% to 20% deviation; that if there is a decent loss experience for the last 2 years, we can get a deviation up to 20%. If we look at ours when it comes due in the fall, it could possibly save as much as 20% because our loss ratio last year and the year before was good. Contrary to the discussions that have taken place on the liability, where no deviation has been built into the plan, this one does include a 10 to 20o devia- tion. When our policy comes up for renewal, we could save a sizable amount of money, be reported. The Mayor also discussed the status of Tamarac's grant with the people in Tallahassee. Mitch Ceaser indicated on Sunday that he was going to Tallahassee again on Tuesday. He was coming to City Hall tomorrow to discuss the status on that particular project. Mayor Falck requested that Council authorize a one -day trip to Orlando for the Mayor to attend the conference on Liability of Local Governmental Officials on June 13, 1980. He coin -- mended the City Attorney for the information he has been pro- viding about the current status of sovereign immunity. In order to put together some kind of proposal for Council to consider the latter part of next month, Council will need to know speci- fically what our involvement could possibly be as local govern- mental officials. 57. Authorization Of One -day Trip For Mayor on June 13th To Orlando For Conference on Liability of Governmental Officials. SYNOPSIS OF ACTION: Agendized by Consent Mayor authorized to attend conference in Orlando on June 13, 1980. -25- 5/29/80 by V/M Massaro "MOVED TO AGENDIZE" the discussion and possible action on the approval of the Mayor going to Orlando on June 13th, 1980. C/W Kelch SECONDED the motion. VOTE: ALL VOTED AYE. V/M Massaro MOVED that the Mayor be authorized to make the trip to Orlando on June 13th, 1980. C/W Kelch SECONDED. VOTE: ALL VOTED AYE. Mayor Falck stated regarding the organization meeting in Talla- hassee that representatives of Lloyd's home office in London attended and will be providing the excess and umbrella coverage. They have a top ceiling on everything so they had no need for sovereign immunity or for medical because of the governmental medical program. The Mayor expressed satisfaction on the ex- change of philosophies with these representatives. MEETING WAS RECESSED UNTIL 9:30 A.M., TUESDAY, JUNE 3, 1980. ATTEST: _4m�—Crf,v CLERK APPROVE sv CITY COUNCIL ON Thisublic document was promulgated at a cost of or $ ].� per copy to inform the general public and public officers and employees about recent opinions and considerations by the City Council of the City of Tamarac. -26- 5/29/80